Spanish Civil War On The Way? Can The Eu Step In Here?

[ToraToraTora]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41493014
Let's hope this doesn't give JimmyK ideas eh!

[Kromovaracun]

Seems like this whole catastrophe is what the Catalan leadership was angling for in the first place. What a cynical, grasping bunch of narcissists they are.

[youngmafbog]

//What a cynical, grasping bunch of narcissists they are. //

I wonder how long that statement would last on here if it was a post about Scottish Independance?

[Kromovaracun]

I have said exactly those same words about the Scottish nationalists, because I feel the same way about them. So far, however, the SNP have not deliberately violated their own laws (as well as that of the UK) to try and force a violent confrontation with the central government and make political capital.

[youngmafbog]

Without doubt it is what the Catalan leaders wanted, the Spanish Government played right into their hands and so has the King.

I really dont undertand how you can consider them grasping narcissists though since Indepence is wanted by many there (We wont know the number as the Gov refused the vote but as they did we can safely assum the Gov thing it is a majority)

[youngmafbog]

Krom, it would not work here because our Police cannto act like theirs did. The SNP were alos given the vote and lost.

[youngmafbog]

TTT, no I dont think it will come to civil war, although being Spain one never knows.

What can the EU do?

[ToraToraTora]

"What can the EU do?" - dunno really I just hoped that perhaps they could make themselves useful somehow, after all we are often told that one of the founding principles was to prevent war in Europe. TBH I think Madrid has been a bit heavy handed here, they should have let them have a proper referendum and if they want different dependence let them have it. History has shown countless times that you cannot repress a people for ever in the end they'll rebel.

[Briggsybush]

Our police cannot behave like the Spanish did?? Really? Ask the miners. I live in a mining village and my memory is not so short.

[Togo]

http://thumbsnap.com/i/8J2ou3Av.jpg

http://thumbsnap.com/i/vnU6OVPL.jpg

Compare these images.

[ToraToraTora]

please don't derail this thread with a comparison of old bill techniques, if you want to discuss the relative brutality of Spain v British plods create your own thread.

[albaqwerty]

Don't think the EU can do much.
Don't even think they condemned the violence.

Madrid have handled this badly.

[anotheoldgit]

What will the EU do?

I wonder if Catalan want to remain in the EU?

[mikey4444]

Alba is right...Madrid played directly into the hands of the rebel cause in Barcelona.....I can't think of how they could have done any worse.

[ludwig]

// Madrid have handled this badly. //

Yes. But to be fair, who could have foreseen that sending in riot police to beat the living carp out of people for doing nothing other than putting a cross on a piece of paper could have ended badly?

One does wonder how they'll respond to an actual declaration of independence.

[albaqwerty]

AOG
I've heard reports (on the BBC News yesterday) that they do want to remain part of the EU, but if they become independent then they'd have to apply for membership and meet the criteria.

[Ellipsis]

I have a few friends in Catalonia.

The situation there is that around 40-50% want independence and around 50-60% don't ... so a large part of the population is going to be unhappy whatever the outcome.

The Spanish government declared the referendum illegal in advance. Therefore there was not the usual pre-referendum debate period and media rules, and anybody supporting the government would be unlikely to vote. This all makes the vote VERY different to the Scottish and Brexit referendums. Declaring independence based on the result, especially when it seems that a minority want independence, would be tantamount to declaring civil war, yes. Avoiding this is a mighty big deal for the EU, I would say, bigger than Brexit. The only logical thing for the EU to do would be to say to Catalonia that, based on that form of independence, they would not be allowed back into the EU despite a) using the Euro and b) wanting to be in the EU.

[ichkeria]

I agree with kromo: while the actions of the Spanish police were to be condemned in parts, it was to be predicted, and for that reason it does look as if they were trying to engineer this situation ni thhe first place.
Much as I admire the Catalan people and support their right to self-determination, there is no legal or moral basis for the government to declare UDI.
Hopefully wise counsel will prevail.

Comparisons with Scotland are odious: Scotland had a legal referendum and no one has threatened to declare UDI there.

[jim360]

I think at the moment the EU is presumably bound to respect the Spanish government rather than the Catalan one. Its not entirely unlike Yorkshire County Council declaring Independence, and the EU wouldn't initially listen to them either (which, to be fair, might partly because they'd have trouble understanding a proper Yorkshire accent). But officially the EU wouldn't recognise YCC over Westminster, and in the same way can't recognise the Catalan Government over the Spanish one.

It's a mess but one that is, for the time being, an internal Spanish mess. I don't think it will be too long, sadly, before it becomes an even bigger mess.

I spent time in Barcelona last year and did briefly talk about the politics there. One man was complaining that Catalonia has, for example, born the brunt of austerity measures in terms of public sector wage cuts and the like. All that could have been resolved, I suspect, had the government in Madrid been more willing to listen rather than to send in police to beat up the people there.

[jim360]

I should just add that I agree that a referendum that has 90% support for independence in a region where the country is split strongly speaks to the idea that it shouldn't have been held under these circumstances in the first place, and in that sense although I sympathise with the Catalan people I don't support their political leaders.

[Sqad]

Ellipsis/ Jim.
There are all sorts of figures and statistics flying around Spain at the moment but nobody can verify their accuracy.
At breakfast this morning (small village in Menorca), the talk is that of a 45% turnout to vote (55% didn't vote)with a majority of YES at around 90%. This meant that in the vote (if true) then 36% of Catalonians want independence , assuming that the remaining 64% didn't.
So it is not all done and dusted by a long way, the younger Catalonians being the more vociferous of the electorate.