The Enigma Of Socialism

[Khandro]

What is its appeal? Are its supporters ignorant of world history, or of even current politics? In the USSR, China, North Korea, Eastern Europe, Cuba, Vietnam, Cambodia, and Venezuela it has led variously to the suppression of free speech, the imprisonment of dissidents, state-sanctioned mass murder and widespread starvation - as witnessed recently by the President of Venezuela telling the people not to be squeamish about eating their rabbits.

So what began as a dream of equality ends up with you having to eat your pets!

With all previous attempts at Socialism having patently failed, why did nearly 13 million of the population vote for Jeremy Corbyn last June, are they unaware of the suffering and misery which Socialism has unleashed on the world?

[kvalidir]

In my experience Danny13k one does't have to take the English language literally all of the time. Native speakers tend to use all sorts of shades and tones in their language, so unless you aren't a native speaker, you have really no excuse to take my post regarding hanging from bridges literally, it clearly referred to the increase in suicides of all sorts under the Tory government due to their policies relating to the most vulnerable people in our society. If you are struggling with this I'll endeavour to write more simply next time if I think there is any danger you will read it. Please let me know.

[sp1814]

sigh...

[Kromovaracun]

Sigh.

No, Naomi, we're not ignorant about the socialist regimes in E. Europe. But I can see why that would be a comforting idea for you to think.

I don't like mentioning this as I consider it a little too personal, but I speak Russian, I lived there for just over a year, and spent considerable time in the state archives for my doctorate. As it happens, I know plenty about the old communist regimes in Eastern Europe.

I don't think that knowledge is particularly relevant though, because the Left in western europe has overwhelmingly broken with supporting the Soviet model since 1956 - some parts of it (such as the Democratic Socialist faction of Labour) did so even earlier.

If Jeremy Corbyn comes out in favour of a planned economy and collectivisation of agriculture - or if there's significant evidence he genuinely favours those things - I'll be the first to rule out voting for him. Until that happens though, it's nonsense to claim that Labour wants to impose Soviet-style socialism or that this would result from a Labour win. Their manifesto was mainstream by west European standards.

This red scare that happens every time Labour elects a leader who isn't a dead-on centrist needs to stop. If you want to understand why people vote for Corbyn, step off the pulpit, stop patronising people who are your equals, and actually try to imagine how the world looks to someone who isn't you.

[Khandro]

jim; //One thing worth adding, too, is that supposing for the sake of argument I was in abject poverty, then what exactly is your message?//

Well, Norman Tebbit's message was. "Do what my dad did when he was unemployed, he got on his bike and went out and found a job".

[youngmafbog]

Perhaps you too should take off the rose tinted specs and understand where people other than you are coming from too?

[Kromovaracun]

The question is about why people vote for Corbyn ymb. If you want to understand that, accusing them all of being ignorant blinkered ideologues won't cut it.

[jim360]

I also have been to Russia, and not because it was a socialist haven but because I was afforded a wonderful opportunity, owing to a flatmate who was Russian whose friend visited and offered me the chance of a return visit. I also speak a little Russian, although not nearly so much as kromo will. And one thing I gained from that wonderful experience was a chance to see the place for myself, and a chance to talk to people who did live through the Soviet regime. And my Mum enjoyed (I use the word "enjoyed" in the broadest possible sense) a trip to Ceaucescu's Romanian regime.

So no -- I don't consider myself ignorant of the realities of what an extreme form of socialism can be like. It was fairly obvious that the people I spoke to, that the places I saw, and the conversations I had showed the hollowness of pure, unadulterated communism.

Although then again, the Winter Palace at St. Petersburg rather betrays how bad it can be if you allow the rich and powerful to become ever more rich and powerful with no regard for the people, so at the very least you have to appreciate that the revolution of 1917 was pretty inevitable and understandable, no matter what replaced it. And broadly speaking that's my point. It seems that the best you can offer is that it's worth just settling with a party that is, right now, devoid of any real ideas and authority and seems content to just plod along with some sort of idea that it's entitled to power and doesn't have to do anything to earn that power.

The Labour party under Jeremy Corbyn does not remotely compare to what life was like in Russia pre-1990, and never will, and to pretend otherwise is, frankly, to insult those who suffered under that regime. I wonder which of us would really benefit the most from studying Communist Europe. Clue: not me.

[Gromit]

// why did nearly 13 million of the population vote for Jeremy Corbyn last June ? //

- A weak Consevative leader
- Prime Minister that was evasive and dishonest
- A Conservative Party deeply divided
- A Conservative manifesto that was terrible
- Failure to talk to voters under 45
- Hard Brexit being the wrong policy
- Anger at an early election being called
- A feeling of it's time for a change
- Wanting an end to the malaise by our rulers
- Fed up with austerity.

13 million did not suddenly convert to socialism in June. But they voted for change, and nearly got it.

Wilson in 1974 being in e same position as May is now, went back to the country for an Autumn rerun of the General Election. But that is the last thing May and the Conservatives want, because they know they ould lose event more votes and let Labour in. So our lame duck PM will lead a failed Government and shambolic party and continue making an even bigger mess than we are already in. The longer that situation goes on, the bigger Corbyn's landslide will be when we do next go to the polls.

[kvalidir]

Adding also to the debate about whether it is only the young and stupid who are socialists who have no understanding of communism in it's most brutal forms, I'd like to add that my partner is Romanian and a victim of Ceauscescu's regime, in that he was in a Romanian orphanage because his mother could not afford to feed he and his siblings having watched one die. Cruelty comes in many forms, sometimes it's via communism and sometimes via being a Tory who sees nothing wrong with austerity costing people's lives and futures, the fact some of us want to vote for a moderate socialist government is not indicative of either naivete or stupidity, we have simply come to the conclusion that we cannot go on as we are without a great cost to the people of this country under Tory rule, and we see no danger in ever becoming a communist state in the sense you have mentioned.

[dannyk13]

kvalidir
//if I think there is any danger you will read it. Please let me know//
No danger at all.

[jim360]

So, in summary, that's three supporters, to some extent or another, of Corbyn (I should say that I am lukewarm about him but certainly not in the "I would rather vote for Farage than him" way) who also after all have experience, directly or indirectly, of what Socialism in extremis can be like.

Any bets for the next attempt Khandro et al will make to portray politics as entirely objective and unarguable?

(As an aside, kval, did you have a chance to see my last post in NoM's thread from yesterday?)

[kvalidir]

Yes I did thank you Jim. Pax :)

[jim360]

Cool -- didn't want there to be any hard feelings.

[mikey4444]

Gromit...well said at 17:27. But our resident right-wingers won't be able to see the sense in that, because their blinkers gives them tunnel vision.

May is fast approaching emulating John Major, in the mid 90's....refusing to knowledge that his time was up, until the daggers fell between his shoulder blades.

Teresa...beware the ides of October !

[Baldric]

And Mikey is of course our resident expert on Blinkers

[sp1814]

And just like that Kromovaracun, jim360, kvalidir and Gromit restore my faith in reasoned arguments.

Unsigh.

[Khandro]

Kvalidir; //Cruelty comes in many forms, sometimes it's via communism and sometimes via being a Tory who sees nothing wrong with austerity costing people's lives and futures,//

I feel sympathy for your partner's hard upbringing under a cruel socialist regime, but you can not surely be comparing Ceauscescu's regime, with the UK Conservative party. I knew the mother of a friend who had spent several years in the gulag and reading the review of the new book; 'Red Famine; Stalin's War on the Ukraine' is enough alone to make you weep.
What has this got to do with cosy, 'Man of principles' Jeremy Corbyn you may ask ?
Well he's a life-long Marxist/Leninist - he even wore a Lenin hat for Pete's sake!' and his naive outdated political views will inexorably and automatically lead seamlessly from a seemingly bland Socialism towards a much stronger manifestation of it.
This has been proven time and time again by history.

[ToraToraTora]

mikey: "May is fast approaching emulating John Major, in the mid 90's.." - you mean the Psuedo Tories Part II are on their way? can't wait!

[mikey4444]

TTT.........I have no recollection of any Tories celebrating on May 2nd 1997, when Labour won the landslide, but according to you, they should have been. How odd.

In fact, my recollection of that day is that John Major went to watch some cricket, and was never heard of again.

[Old_Geezer]

It was the wrong Tory.