Octopus Energy - Worth A Punt?
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The Greeks Have Done It !
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I think folk say that Greece should have left for more than any possible break up outcome reasons. It's because Greece were not in a fit state to join, and it's caused further issues in dealing with their crisis as they would like to deal with it; what with exchange rate policy no longer being under their control. And it seems wisest for them to remove themselves from that position until they have sorted themselves out. And then decide whether they want to go back there again.
Well the Greeks on the hodon ( Gk for street - geddit ? ) dont like it much
and there was a market analyst giving the agreement some welly
[ only one way - another crisis imminent ]
o and if any one is watch sky - the fella who is speaking in front of a pillar
the graffito behind says - NO to German barbarity ! ( I think )
and there was a market analyst giving the agreement some welly
[ only one way - another crisis imminent ]
o and if any one is watch sky - the fella who is speaking in front of a pillar
the graffito behind says - NO to German barbarity ! ( I think )
The bubbles have now given up any chance they had of getting their country back from the eussr empire builders......goodbye greece, you have for the foreseable future become a province in the empire...
would they have just rolled over if it was german troops trying to take them over, they didnt in WWII so why now ?
would they have just rolled over if it was german troops trying to take them over, they didnt in WWII so why now ?
“…a seriously complex economical issue,”
It’s not that complex at all, Andy:
- The euro was launched as a flawed project and was born out of political vanity, not economic/fiscal competence.
- The Greeks joined the euro under false pretences. The reasons why they should not have been allowed to join are now plain for all to see.
- Instead of realising their folly in allowing both (1) and (2) above to happen, Euromaniacs have gone to untold lengths to protect their love child (the euro). These "bail outs" are directed towards protecting the euro, not protecting the Greek economy.
- The rest of the Eurozone (and the rest of the EU as well to a lesser degree) will continue to pay for this folly so long as the single currency is used by Greece. Stand by for a similar “crisis” to erupt in six to twelve months time when it is realised that the latest “agreement” is not being adhered to and will not cure the problem even if it was.
I noticed that one of the Euromaniacs was quoted on the wireless this morning as saying “there are no winners or losers here”. I beg to differ. The losers are Greeks’ creditors (who are unlikely to see much of their money returned), the rest of the EU (who will have to continue to fund this ludicrous situation) and the Greek people (who will now be ruled effectively by an EU government and will face years of further penury). The winners are those who wish to see Europe as a single nation state because they know that control of a nation's currency effectively grants control of it in its entirety. This has been adequately demonstrated over the past few years with Greece.
“…had a feeling it would be a derogatory term.”
It is not a derogatory term, Maggie. It is simply a affectionate soubriquet applied to the Greeks. It is no more derogatory than ”Yanks” for Americans or “Brits” for British people.
It’s not that complex at all, Andy:
- The euro was launched as a flawed project and was born out of political vanity, not economic/fiscal competence.
- The Greeks joined the euro under false pretences. The reasons why they should not have been allowed to join are now plain for all to see.
- Instead of realising their folly in allowing both (1) and (2) above to happen, Euromaniacs have gone to untold lengths to protect their love child (the euro). These "bail outs" are directed towards protecting the euro, not protecting the Greek economy.
- The rest of the Eurozone (and the rest of the EU as well to a lesser degree) will continue to pay for this folly so long as the single currency is used by Greece. Stand by for a similar “crisis” to erupt in six to twelve months time when it is realised that the latest “agreement” is not being adhered to and will not cure the problem even if it was.
I noticed that one of the Euromaniacs was quoted on the wireless this morning as saying “there are no winners or losers here”. I beg to differ. The losers are Greeks’ creditors (who are unlikely to see much of their money returned), the rest of the EU (who will have to continue to fund this ludicrous situation) and the Greek people (who will now be ruled effectively by an EU government and will face years of further penury). The winners are those who wish to see Europe as a single nation state because they know that control of a nation's currency effectively grants control of it in its entirety. This has been adequately demonstrated over the past few years with Greece.
“…had a feeling it would be a derogatory term.”
It is not a derogatory term, Maggie. It is simply a affectionate soubriquet applied to the Greeks. It is no more derogatory than ”Yanks” for Americans or “Brits” for British people.
All that has been achieved here is that the can has been kicked down the road a bit further. Greece has such eye-wateringly massive debts that it can never repay them, no matter what austerity measures it takes in the future. It can sell off all its assets and still be hopelessly in debt.
And I agree with Maggie here...there is distinct element of paying for blood.
Unless the authorities were prepared to see the Greeks go to the wall, and take the Euro with them, there was always going to be a rescue. And that it is what has happened...Greece has been rescued, yet again.
It could be any other European country next....there for the grace of God, etc, etc.
And I agree with Maggie here...there is distinct element of paying for blood.
Unless the authorities were prepared to see the Greeks go to the wall, and take the Euro with them, there was always going to be a rescue. And that it is what has happened...Greece has been rescued, yet again.
It could be any other European country next....there for the grace of God, etc, etc.
This is not baying for blood. There are only two ways this can go. Take this 5, 10, 20 or 50 years down the line with Greece still in the Euro and it's clearly untenable. Something's got to give. It was a massive error to join. That error needs unwinding, somehow.
As I see it: Greece should never have joined the Euro, not much has changed since they did join, therefore they either need to change or leave, genuine change is highly unlikely, therefore probably best if they left and we get the consequences of that out of the way sooner rather than later.
If there was no Euro and Germany still had the Deutschmark, German products would not be so cheap around the world. The rich Euro countries, particularly Germany and France, have had an export bonanza on the back of a low-value currency that the poorer countries like Greece have been paying for. The richer countries will not see it this way, of course, but they really owe it to the likes of Greece to help them to exit the Euro ...
As I see it: Greece should never have joined the Euro, not much has changed since they did join, therefore they either need to change or leave, genuine change is highly unlikely, therefore probably best if they left and we get the consequences of that out of the way sooner rather than later.
If there was no Euro and Germany still had the Deutschmark, German products would not be so cheap around the world. The rich Euro countries, particularly Germany and France, have had an export bonanza on the back of a low-value currency that the poorer countries like Greece have been paying for. The richer countries will not see it this way, of course, but they really owe it to the likes of Greece to help them to exit the Euro ...
Yes, ellipsis is quite right, Mikey.
Nobody is baying for blood. Terrible errors have been made by politicians but we are where we are. The euro has inflicted untold misery on the “PIIGS” nations and the principle beneficiary has been Germany (in 2008 more Porsche Cayennes were sold in Greece than in Germany). The time has come to admit to these mistakes and unwind the mess as painlessly as possible. But this will not be countenanced because the Euromaniacs still have in their sites a Federal Europe. M. Hollande confirms this when saying “If Greece leaves the euro Europe will be going backwards, and that’s not what I want” (well that’s alright then).
Harris Georgoidies, the Cypriot finance minister (who wants to see Greece retain the euro at almost any cost) said this:
“We need to operate less on the basis of emotions and more on the basis of logic”
If that were true (1) the euro would never had been introduced (2) Greece would have been allowed nowhere near it if it was and (3) Greece would now be allowed a controlled exit from their plight.
Nobody is baying for blood. Terrible errors have been made by politicians but we are where we are. The euro has inflicted untold misery on the “PIIGS” nations and the principle beneficiary has been Germany (in 2008 more Porsche Cayennes were sold in Greece than in Germany). The time has come to admit to these mistakes and unwind the mess as painlessly as possible. But this will not be countenanced because the Euromaniacs still have in their sites a Federal Europe. M. Hollande confirms this when saying “If Greece leaves the euro Europe will be going backwards, and that’s not what I want” (well that’s alright then).
Harris Georgoidies, the Cypriot finance minister (who wants to see Greece retain the euro at almost any cost) said this:
“We need to operate less on the basis of emotions and more on the basis of logic”
If that were true (1) the euro would never had been introduced (2) Greece would have been allowed nowhere near it if it was and (3) Greece would now be allowed a controlled exit from their plight.
NJ, you're right to say that 'Yanks' is an affectionate soubriquet for Americans among the general British population; however, the usual suspects here on AnswerBank do not refer to them in that way, but as 'Septics' on the basis of 'septic tanks'. Nothing terribly affectionate about that, is there?
> There was no real alternative but to rescue the Greek economy
Greece either needs to change or leave the Euro. A "rescue" (LOL at that expression) requires them to change, to become more German-like and to pay off their huge debts. It's not going to happen - were you watching the referendum only 8 days ago? There is no appetite for that, especially among the younger Greek people.
All this so-called rescue is doing is kicking the problem further down the line, and making it bigger. It's like a snowball rolling down a hill, except it's never going to melt away.
A true rescue would be for the creditors or some third party to write off or pay off a huge chunk of Greece's debt. Even then, you'd still have the problem that Greece was in the Euro which, as NJ stated above, they should be allowed nowhere near. They need to leave the Euro and use a currency that allows them to compete on the world stage. As it is, they look expensive and German products look cheap.
Greece either needs to change or leave the Euro. A "rescue" (LOL at that expression) requires them to change, to become more German-like and to pay off their huge debts. It's not going to happen - were you watching the referendum only 8 days ago? There is no appetite for that, especially among the younger Greek people.
All this so-called rescue is doing is kicking the problem further down the line, and making it bigger. It's like a snowball rolling down a hill, except it's never going to melt away.
A true rescue would be for the creditors or some third party to write off or pay off a huge chunk of Greece's debt. Even then, you'd still have the problem that Greece was in the Euro which, as NJ stated above, they should be allowed nowhere near. They need to leave the Euro and use a currency that allows them to compete on the world stage. As it is, they look expensive and German products look cheap.
This has not been about rescuing the Greek economy, Mikey. It has been about rescuing the euro. If Greece had not been using the euro the EU would have seen them face ruin long ago. Mikey. All that's happened (if this deal gets over the various hurdles it still has to) is that a further consignment of banknotes will be on its was southwards with no fundamental change in the Greek economy.
There certainly was an alternative. The Euromaniacs have only been considering ways to keep Greece shackled to the euro. That is not in anybody’s interests bar the vanity of the politicians. There was the opportunity for Greece to default on its debts (and they might as well have done because they are never going to be repaid under any “rescue” scheme), leave the euro, introduce a new Drachma (or whatever they wanted to call it), devalue to an appropriate and sensible level and attract inward investment as a result of that devaluation. They could then have controlled their currency and interest rates to suit their economy. This option could and should have been taken three years ago. The “Grexit” could have been handled in a controlled fashion. Instead, Greece has accumulated three years more debt, their banks have been shut for a fortnight (and look likely to remain so for probably at least as long again) and they will be worse off than they would have been had they accepted the deal on the table before their referendum.
When I last bought a meal in Drachmas in Greece (in 1999) I paid the same amount for six people as I would have done for two people in the UK (I still have the bill). Today (well, about three weeks ago when I was last there) I paid about the same, or perhaps very marginally less for a meal for two as I would do for a similar offering here in the UK. Their costs have grown threefold in about fifteen years. But their productivity has not. And that’s the problem. The euros used in Greece have the same value as those used in Germany and that is simply ridiculous.
The whole thing is a complete and utter mess and has ramifications across Europe and the wider world. And the root cause is the flawed euro project and the Euromaniacs’ refusal to accept their folly and put it right properly. Instead they come up, time after time, with a “rescue package” that involves simply shifting lorry loads of banknotes from Berlin to Athens. The lunatics truly are running the asylum.
There certainly was an alternative. The Euromaniacs have only been considering ways to keep Greece shackled to the euro. That is not in anybody’s interests bar the vanity of the politicians. There was the opportunity for Greece to default on its debts (and they might as well have done because they are never going to be repaid under any “rescue” scheme), leave the euro, introduce a new Drachma (or whatever they wanted to call it), devalue to an appropriate and sensible level and attract inward investment as a result of that devaluation. They could then have controlled their currency and interest rates to suit their economy. This option could and should have been taken three years ago. The “Grexit” could have been handled in a controlled fashion. Instead, Greece has accumulated three years more debt, their banks have been shut for a fortnight (and look likely to remain so for probably at least as long again) and they will be worse off than they would have been had they accepted the deal on the table before their referendum.
When I last bought a meal in Drachmas in Greece (in 1999) I paid the same amount for six people as I would have done for two people in the UK (I still have the bill). Today (well, about three weeks ago when I was last there) I paid about the same, or perhaps very marginally less for a meal for two as I would do for a similar offering here in the UK. Their costs have grown threefold in about fifteen years. But their productivity has not. And that’s the problem. The euros used in Greece have the same value as those used in Germany and that is simply ridiculous.
The whole thing is a complete and utter mess and has ramifications across Europe and the wider world. And the root cause is the flawed euro project and the Euromaniacs’ refusal to accept their folly and put it right properly. Instead they come up, time after time, with a “rescue package” that involves simply shifting lorry loads of banknotes from Berlin to Athens. The lunatics truly are running the asylum.
As usual those that want to be offended always find something....Zzzzz
The septics better stop calling us limeys, the frogs better stop calling les rosbifs, the ozzys beter stop calling us poms....oh god Im getting offended just thinking about it
what do the eyties call us ?....who knows , who cares
The septics better stop calling us limeys, the frogs better stop calling les rosbifs, the ozzys beter stop calling us poms....oh god Im getting offended just thinking about it
what do the eyties call us ?....who knows , who cares
"It has been about rescuing the euro. "
its not just that, its about not losing face and seeing the whole eussr empire buiding experiment go up in flames.
If the bubbles had quit using the euro and left the eu , they could have saved themselves for now, even though the euromaniacs (love that term NJ) would have done their best to take them over again at a later date...on the grand scale of things the money is peanuts...its all about the empire and saving face...
its not just that, its about not losing face and seeing the whole eussr empire buiding experiment go up in flames.
If the bubbles had quit using the euro and left the eu , they could have saved themselves for now, even though the euromaniacs (love that term NJ) would have done their best to take them over again at a later date...on the grand scale of things the money is peanuts...its all about the empire and saving face...
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