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Bloody Sunday 1972
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Criminal Investigation in doubt due to cutbacks in police funding.
Should the British Army Paras face a full investigation over the 1972 incident?
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Should the British Army Paras face a full investigation over the 1972 incident?
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Kvali, part time till recently. My opinions do not stem from any military perspective other than knowledge of training and experience.
Should they have been held to account; the ordinary soldiers in the street doing whatever job they were there to do, simply no. Senior officers, politicians, intelligence people yes, but it should have been done when it was relevant not 40 years later. Our troops are held to account through the military justice system.
I would also ask Kvali what do you think gives us civilians the right to question someone who is standing on the front line defending our country with their life. Did Lee Rigby deserve what he got for being a member of the armed services?? You're right "It really can't be selective" so you go and sign up and stand on the frontline against IS or anywhere else that our troops serve and come back and tell me how easy it is.
Nüremburg trials: each member on trial there was a senior Nazi responsible for the atrocities of the holocaust. The orders theory is mute, these were the men who gave the orders. ( Prof Ian Kershaw, Hitler: Hubris and Nemesis)
Poorclare: I agree it needs put to bed but yes those responsible should have been held to account at the time.
Last word
When in uniform a commander assumes responsibility for the men under his command and their further actions. The commander relies upon his commanders to issue the necessary orders and scope to deal with the situation at hand.
Should they have been held to account; the ordinary soldiers in the street doing whatever job they were there to do, simply no. Senior officers, politicians, intelligence people yes, but it should have been done when it was relevant not 40 years later. Our troops are held to account through the military justice system.
I would also ask Kvali what do you think gives us civilians the right to question someone who is standing on the front line defending our country with their life. Did Lee Rigby deserve what he got for being a member of the armed services?? You're right "It really can't be selective" so you go and sign up and stand on the frontline against IS or anywhere else that our troops serve and come back and tell me how easy it is.
Nüremburg trials: each member on trial there was a senior Nazi responsible for the atrocities of the holocaust. The orders theory is mute, these were the men who gave the orders. ( Prof Ian Kershaw, Hitler: Hubris and Nemesis)
Poorclare: I agree it needs put to bed but yes those responsible should have been held to account at the time.
Last word
When in uniform a commander assumes responsibility for the men under his command and their further actions. The commander relies upon his commanders to issue the necessary orders and scope to deal with the situation at hand.
Sorry I should have been more selective with my terminology- when I mentioned Nuremburg Trials, I wasn't referring solely to the military tribunal which tried the big boys, but the wider umbrella of military tribunals under that which tried far more lowly individuals and sentenced them to death- very much not decision makers- very much the ' just obeying orders' brigade, so my initial point, now clarified I hope, still stands. Why was it okay for us to execute German soldiers for obeying orders, but not hold the Bloody Sunday personnel into account? As i said we really cannot be selective.
Who are we to question members of the armed forces a civilians? That's quite an astonishing question to be honest, we cannot allow ourselves to be blindly led into thinking anything the military do is okay even in the theatre of war, and of course Lee Rigby most certainly did not deserve what happened to him, I really can't see the connection there.
Who are we to question members of the armed forces a civilians? That's quite an astonishing question to be honest, we cannot allow ourselves to be blindly led into thinking anything the military do is okay even in the theatre of war, and of course Lee Rigby most certainly did not deserve what happened to him, I really can't see the connection there.
You mean the Subsidiary Trials?? they prosecuted anyone at that time who had direct impact on the executions and atrocities in the camps Hoess and his commanders from Auchwitz Birkenau etc etc... At Auchwitz no ordinary soldier was executed, imprisoned but not executed, that was reserved for the commanders.
Our military is built on the backs of individuals who have a passion and commitment to serve our country or what every country you are from. They are poorly paid but will stand where so many of our young people won't these days. Yet still you want to question them.
If you'd read the post you would have seen my comment on military justice, that's what maintains the discipline and governs how our troops act in a theatre of war, during conflict and peace. It follows the rules and laws dictated by Queens Regulations, QR's are very robust and military justice is far more exacting and rigourous than the soft soap pointless PC "justice" that you see and expect in civilian life.
If you can't make the link for Lee Rigby I'm not going to tell you but just think, we'll be paying for his murderers to be kept in some kind of luxury for the rest of their lives.
Often our armed forces question whether they have any respect from the people in our country, I question it too. In London recently at the Bomber Command Memorial where Green Park meets Hyde Park I met a 94 year old gentleman who flew Lancasters in WW2, I asked to shake his hand to say than you... his response it's a shame some of the people in our country didn't respect what the military did for them, sad to say he's right
Our military is built on the backs of individuals who have a passion and commitment to serve our country or what every country you are from. They are poorly paid but will stand where so many of our young people won't these days. Yet still you want to question them.
If you'd read the post you would have seen my comment on military justice, that's what maintains the discipline and governs how our troops act in a theatre of war, during conflict and peace. It follows the rules and laws dictated by Queens Regulations, QR's are very robust and military justice is far more exacting and rigourous than the soft soap pointless PC "justice" that you see and expect in civilian life.
If you can't make the link for Lee Rigby I'm not going to tell you but just think, we'll be paying for his murderers to be kept in some kind of luxury for the rest of their lives.
Often our armed forces question whether they have any respect from the people in our country, I question it too. In London recently at the Bomber Command Memorial where Green Park meets Hyde Park I met a 94 year old gentleman who flew Lancasters in WW2, I asked to shake his hand to say than you... his response it's a shame some of the people in our country didn't respect what the military did for them, sad to say he's right
kval, of those indicted at Nuremberg outside of the "big boys", there were 24 death sentences handed down; most of these were associated with the death camps and experimental establishments and were not military personnel (in the main, SS members and contemporaries of Dr Mengele). of those wehrmacht generals who were found guilty, none were executed and all were released by 1954.
No, I can find no link for Lee Rigby and have asked you to explain how that has any bearing whatsoever on the atrocity that was Bloody Sunday, but you don't want to. In fact you don't want to explain a lot of things because it's your 'final word' or you don't want to 'go into the political argument'. If that is the case why ever did you post on a thread steeped in relevance to the politcial situation in the north of Ireland?
I think sandyRoe has hit the nail on the head in that the Saville Inquiry is the closest the victims' families are going to get in their quest to find out the truth.
Whereas John Major would not agree to holding a full inquiry, Tony Blair did. The Saville Inquiry found that the Paras lost control of the situation and did not issue any warnings before firing shots on unarmed and fleeing civilians. Shots were fired on people whilst attending to injured casualties.
The report also highlighted that soldiers had invented stories to hide their acts.
As mentioned, David Cameron then made a formal apology.
Corporal Derek Wilford was the OIC and he received an OBE in the Summer of '72 I believe. Mike Jackson was second in command and he gave his own differing views regarding events on the day 30 years apart.
Saville cost nearly £200m and although the door was left open for criminal prosecutions, I cannot imagine the cost of a new investigation or how long it would take with reduced manpower.
This was certainly one messed up affair which will sadly continue to fester.
Whereas John Major would not agree to holding a full inquiry, Tony Blair did. The Saville Inquiry found that the Paras lost control of the situation and did not issue any warnings before firing shots on unarmed and fleeing civilians. Shots were fired on people whilst attending to injured casualties.
The report also highlighted that soldiers had invented stories to hide their acts.
As mentioned, David Cameron then made a formal apology.
Corporal Derek Wilford was the OIC and he received an OBE in the Summer of '72 I believe. Mike Jackson was second in command and he gave his own differing views regarding events on the day 30 years apart.
Saville cost nearly £200m and although the door was left open for criminal prosecutions, I cannot imagine the cost of a new investigation or how long it would take with reduced manpower.
This was certainly one messed up affair which will sadly continue to fester.
Okay Kvali you win .... at 16 years old you're obviously staggeringly more intellectual and have more life experience to talk about this. Amazing when you were born the same year Good Friday was signed.
Colonel Derek Wilford was Battalion Commander on that day, he was promoted to Brigadier but never progressed any further, his career really stopped on that day. The responsibility rested with him for taking troops into Bogside that day supposedly against orders but as is often the case there are scapegoats, who really has covered up, the Army, MI5?? is Wilford a scapegoat; we'll never really know.
General Mike is probably the best soldier Britain has had since WW2. I've met him and from the look in his eye, you could follow that man into hell and p!$$ on the devils crumpets if he asked you to. However what's quoted here is a little out of context. He agreed with the apology and stated that innocent people were killed "without justification", he also stated that NI is a very different place because of the sacrifices that had been made by the soldiers who had served and that Saville be viewed in that context.
On that day it is known and has been confirmed that there were IRA snipers around and that shots were fired. Who fired first?? Are we certain of this?? I'm carrying a weapon and I hear a shot, how do I react in whats a high pressure situation?? It's not the first time or the last, that someone will lose their head in a situation like that.
It's an impossible situation don't send in the troops and see someone killed for propaganda or send them in and make 40 years of propaganda. There were 3531 deaths on all sides during the troubles but more has been made of Bloody Sunday than any other incident during the whole time. How many innocents don't we talk of were killed in the name of a united Ireland. Like Lee Rigby, 363 British soldiers were sacrificed in our name to accelerate peace, is it worth it?? Von Clausewitz again "War is an act of violence which in its application knows no bounds." The Troubles were a civil war that knew no bounds just like every other conflict.
Saville happened to appease Sinn Fein as part of the Good Friday Agreement, it was one of the things that Sinn Fein demanded because they wanted someone prosecuted for Bloody Sunday. McGuinness was in Bogside that day, as he has acknowledged but his innocence has always been questioned, his membership of PIRA has never been in question. Saville cost around £400 million depending on whose figures you read and was designed to flatter Tony B Liar, to confirm his legacy as the architect of the Good Friday Agreement, Saville was all about Blair's vanity. Historically British PMs are very good at appeasement, they managed Hitler and Sinn Fein very well.
As Sandy has said, this will be the closest we will get to prosecution, the assignment of responsibility in Derek Wilford or scapegoatery, take your pick. Other than Cameron's crass apology he has nothing to gain by letting things progress any further and the taxpayer can't afford it.
The troubles and sectarianism split my family, I grew up mired in it because of two bloody football teams linked to both sides of the argument; I left that behind as soon as I had the chance to. Sectarianism has even been argued as the split in Scotland in the recent Scottish Referendum.
For me it's really simple, any prosecution of the military for actions during a conflict is done within the scope of Queens Regulations and Military Justice or the War Crimes Commission if deemed bad enough to merit it.
As Poorclare said, it should have been put to bed years ago. Any other actions should have been done with long ago, not now!
Colonel Derek Wilford was Battalion Commander on that day, he was promoted to Brigadier but never progressed any further, his career really stopped on that day. The responsibility rested with him for taking troops into Bogside that day supposedly against orders but as is often the case there are scapegoats, who really has covered up, the Army, MI5?? is Wilford a scapegoat; we'll never really know.
General Mike is probably the best soldier Britain has had since WW2. I've met him and from the look in his eye, you could follow that man into hell and p!$$ on the devils crumpets if he asked you to. However what's quoted here is a little out of context. He agreed with the apology and stated that innocent people were killed "without justification", he also stated that NI is a very different place because of the sacrifices that had been made by the soldiers who had served and that Saville be viewed in that context.
On that day it is known and has been confirmed that there were IRA snipers around and that shots were fired. Who fired first?? Are we certain of this?? I'm carrying a weapon and I hear a shot, how do I react in whats a high pressure situation?? It's not the first time or the last, that someone will lose their head in a situation like that.
It's an impossible situation don't send in the troops and see someone killed for propaganda or send them in and make 40 years of propaganda. There were 3531 deaths on all sides during the troubles but more has been made of Bloody Sunday than any other incident during the whole time. How many innocents don't we talk of were killed in the name of a united Ireland. Like Lee Rigby, 363 British soldiers were sacrificed in our name to accelerate peace, is it worth it?? Von Clausewitz again "War is an act of violence which in its application knows no bounds." The Troubles were a civil war that knew no bounds just like every other conflict.
Saville happened to appease Sinn Fein as part of the Good Friday Agreement, it was one of the things that Sinn Fein demanded because they wanted someone prosecuted for Bloody Sunday. McGuinness was in Bogside that day, as he has acknowledged but his innocence has always been questioned, his membership of PIRA has never been in question. Saville cost around £400 million depending on whose figures you read and was designed to flatter Tony B Liar, to confirm his legacy as the architect of the Good Friday Agreement, Saville was all about Blair's vanity. Historically British PMs are very good at appeasement, they managed Hitler and Sinn Fein very well.
As Sandy has said, this will be the closest we will get to prosecution, the assignment of responsibility in Derek Wilford or scapegoatery, take your pick. Other than Cameron's crass apology he has nothing to gain by letting things progress any further and the taxpayer can't afford it.
The troubles and sectarianism split my family, I grew up mired in it because of two bloody football teams linked to both sides of the argument; I left that behind as soon as I had the chance to. Sectarianism has even been argued as the split in Scotland in the recent Scottish Referendum.
For me it's really simple, any prosecution of the military for actions during a conflict is done within the scope of Queens Regulations and Military Justice or the War Crimes Commission if deemed bad enough to merit it.
As Poorclare said, it should have been put to bed years ago. Any other actions should have been done with long ago, not now!
Concur completely with everything Slappy has posted.
Under the Good Friday agreement, scores of former murderers of RUC/UDR/Army were released prematurely.
Why are we still pursuing this with a view to prosecutions some 40+ years on?
It will be virtually impossible to ascertain who fired the fatal shots at whom.
The Good Friday agreement wiped the slate clean for so many, so it should be for all sides across the board.
Under the Good Friday agreement, scores of former murderers of RUC/UDR/Army were released prematurely.
Why are we still pursuing this with a view to prosecutions some 40+ years on?
It will be virtually impossible to ascertain who fired the fatal shots at whom.
The Good Friday agreement wiped the slate clean for so many, so it should be for all sides across the board.
Slappy, (if I may call you that!), a lot of thought went into that post, thanks.
I made a 'rank' error as I attributed the title of 'corporal' instead of 'colonel' to Derek Wilford. He admitted in 2000 that the deaths were unjustified but that they were accidental and had to be seen in the context of a war. Agree about Sir Mike Jackson who was serving as a Captain on the fateful day. A marvellous and very courageous gentleman.
There are so many disputed facts about what happened on Bloody Sunday that it would be impossible to get much further to the truth.
Sadly, for the relatives, their agony is likely to endure.
I made a 'rank' error as I attributed the title of 'corporal' instead of 'colonel' to Derek Wilford. He admitted in 2000 that the deaths were unjustified but that they were accidental and had to be seen in the context of a war. Agree about Sir Mike Jackson who was serving as a Captain on the fateful day. A marvellous and very courageous gentleman.
There are so many disputed facts about what happened on Bloody Sunday that it would be impossible to get much further to the truth.
Sadly, for the relatives, their agony is likely to endure.
AG you may call me Slappy if you want. (far too polite ;0) ) As I mentioned at the start it's a soapboxy one for me and didn't really want to get into it but that's life I guess. I know military families that will never recover from the events in Ireland, just the same as those who still fight for action for bloody Sunday. Much was done to appease for the Good Friday Agreement, much of which was a slap in the face to military and RUC families everywhere in fact anyone connected with the troubles.
You are correct in your summation, it's too late to do anything properly now and it should be put to bed.
You are correct in your summation, it's too late to do anything properly now and it should be put to bed.
// The Saville Enquiry is the closest the families of those killed on Bloody Sunday will get to justice.//
THE BLOODY SUNDAY INQUIRY. The Saville Inquiry into the deaths of 13 people on Bloody Sunday has lasted 12 years and cost £195m, making it the longest and most expensive public inquiry in UK history
wouldnt it have been easier and fairer just to give each lucky family £10m ?
anyway they deciided to give it all to the lawyers in costs
THE BLOODY SUNDAY INQUIRY. The Saville Inquiry into the deaths of 13 people on Bloody Sunday has lasted 12 years and cost £195m, making it the longest and most expensive public inquiry in UK history
wouldnt it have been easier and fairer just to give each lucky family £10m ?
anyway they deciided to give it all to the lawyers in costs
Slapshot, as Agchristie pointed that was a very well thought out post, pity about the patronising, predictable first paragraph though. Shame, I thought better of you and exactly the reason I left this site last time to debate elsewhere where nonsense like this doesn't occur.
My father, who was born and raised in West Belfast and saw internment first hand and I thought it might be pertinent to the alleged 'debate' going on here if we had a discourse which covered all points of view from all sides of the political divide, however apparently the blase //Okay Kvali you win .... at 16 years old you're obviously staggeringly more intellectual and have more life experience to talk about this.// suffices to silence any counter argument from someone who, although disagreeing with you vehemently, has tried throughout this non debate to be polite to you. It's no victory if people simply cease to argue with you because they can no longer be bothered because of the way they are addressed, so i am bowing out of further debates with you as it's apparently pointless.
My father, who was born and raised in West Belfast and saw internment first hand and I thought it might be pertinent to the alleged 'debate' going on here if we had a discourse which covered all points of view from all sides of the political divide, however apparently the blase //Okay Kvali you win .... at 16 years old you're obviously staggeringly more intellectual and have more life experience to talk about this.// suffices to silence any counter argument from someone who, although disagreeing with you vehemently, has tried throughout this non debate to be polite to you. It's no victory if people simply cease to argue with you because they can no longer be bothered because of the way they are addressed, so i am bowing out of further debates with you as it's apparently pointless.
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