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Misleading Headline?
Is the Mail on Sunday trying to stir up hatred against gay people (again)?
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Answers
Yes it is misleading but what else do you expect from the Daily Wail ? The Wail always has to slip in an anti Gay, anti immigrant, anti benefit claimant or what ever is on their current 'hate list' slant to every story. With this one they have managed to get an anti gay and anti benefit claim slant by mentioning 'tax payer funded' and ' gay' in one sentence.
13:11 Sun 03rd Aug 2014
I acknowledge that many of these reports were referring to the same Australian report.
But I did write 'claim'. I didn't put this through as conclusive proof of anything. That was a challenge to divebuddy's assertion that 'All the evidence points to children being better off with a father.' from 21:34 yesterday.
That's where the thread moved away from it's original discussion point, to a general point about same sex parenting...there might be scant evidence to confirm how well gay parents are doing, but there's absolutely none to show that this form of parenting is detrimental to children.
But I did write 'claim'. I didn't put this through as conclusive proof of anything. That was a challenge to divebuddy's assertion that 'All the evidence points to children being better off with a father.' from 21:34 yesterday.
That's where the thread moved away from it's original discussion point, to a general point about same sex parenting...there might be scant evidence to confirm how well gay parents are doing, but there's absolutely none to show that this form of parenting is detrimental to children.
naomi24
AOG, //Don't you think that all this is reminiscent of Hitler's dream of a super race? //
/// You've lost me completely with that one. Could you please explain why you think that? ///
I was referring to my earlier post, when I put:
*** Sperm Bank???? Almost a Sperm Supermarket, "where is the blonde blue eyed aisle please"? Or "do you do mixed race varieties"? or "have you any from the rich and highly educated, I am willing to pay extra"? ***
But sp seems to think couples have always had that choice when he put:
*** You're probably aware that women make these choices all the time when seeking a mate right? ***
*** So would it not make sense for the sperm to be labelled by donor? ***
Like I said "Blonde and Blued eyed, sperm please"
Do you get my Hitler point now?
AOG, //Don't you think that all this is reminiscent of Hitler's dream of a super race? //
/// You've lost me completely with that one. Could you please explain why you think that? ///
I was referring to my earlier post, when I put:
*** Sperm Bank???? Almost a Sperm Supermarket, "where is the blonde blue eyed aisle please"? Or "do you do mixed race varieties"? or "have you any from the rich and highly educated, I am willing to pay extra"? ***
But sp seems to think couples have always had that choice when he put:
*** You're probably aware that women make these choices all the time when seeking a mate right? ***
*** So would it not make sense for the sperm to be labelled by donor? ***
Like I said "Blonde and Blued eyed, sperm please"
Do you get my Hitler point now?
-- answer removed --
AOG
You wrote:
/// but there's absolutely none to show that this form of parenting is detrimental to children. ///
And if it was, do you really think anyone would dare to say so?
Yes. The countless right wing and Christian fundamentalist groups in the US.
Plus the various Muslim States in the Middle East, plus fundamentalism Christian preachers and politicians in Africa, plus the Russian Orthodox Church leaders in the East.
Did you think that these organisations generally stay quiet on gay rights issues, or do you think that they have a voice and are willing to use it at every opportunity?
I am puzzled why you would think that they wouldn't leap on any study which supports their views.
Can you explain why you think they wouldn't?
You wrote:
/// but there's absolutely none to show that this form of parenting is detrimental to children. ///
And if it was, do you really think anyone would dare to say so?
Yes. The countless right wing and Christian fundamentalist groups in the US.
Plus the various Muslim States in the Middle East, plus fundamentalism Christian preachers and politicians in Africa, plus the Russian Orthodox Church leaders in the East.
Did you think that these organisations generally stay quiet on gay rights issues, or do you think that they have a voice and are willing to use it at every opportunity?
I am puzzled why you would think that they wouldn't leap on any study which supports their views.
Can you explain why you think they wouldn't?
Yes, I think they would "dare" say it. Plenty have before. On the other hand, it's not clear that there is any justification for such claims, at least not in general. Obviously some gay couples can be bad parents, but that's going to be down to other personality traits rather than their sexuality.
A lot of the complaints surrounding this sort of story seem to me to make little sense. "A dangerous social experiment", some people have called it. Why? Why is it any more dangerous to allow gay couples to become parents, having perhaps gone through certain control procedures, than to just let same-sex couples procreate willy-nilly with almost no control whatever for thousands of years? Who knows, perhaps more state involvement in who gets to have children could be a good thing. (I'm not exactly being serious here, but still it surprises me that this is regarded as a social experiment particularly, rather than all the others that go on that are ignored because they fit nicer with people's world views.)
Then there's the other argument that children need both a father figure and mother figure in their lives. There might be rather more justification for this point, but then on the other hand I don't think that it's fair to say that one can't be a father/ mother figure because of what's inside your pants, or not. Fatherhood and motherhood roles are to a large extent defined by how people interact with children, rather than who is doing the interaction, and there is certainly every possibility for two men or two women to provide "both" roles. These things can be very tricky to define exactly, but if motherhood includes spending more time with the children when little, and fatherhood perhaps is the authority figure in the household, then in my childhood I think it's pretty much fair to say that my Dad played the mother figure and my Mum was the father. Make of that what you will.
Again, it comes down to the couple/ single parent in question, and any statements along the lines of "same-sex parents are better/ worse than heterosexual parents" might be statistically true as a whole but totally irrelevant in decided whether or not this couple should be able to have a child.
A lot of the complaints surrounding this sort of story seem to me to make little sense. "A dangerous social experiment", some people have called it. Why? Why is it any more dangerous to allow gay couples to become parents, having perhaps gone through certain control procedures, than to just let same-sex couples procreate willy-nilly with almost no control whatever for thousands of years? Who knows, perhaps more state involvement in who gets to have children could be a good thing. (I'm not exactly being serious here, but still it surprises me that this is regarded as a social experiment particularly, rather than all the others that go on that are ignored because they fit nicer with people's world views.)
Then there's the other argument that children need both a father figure and mother figure in their lives. There might be rather more justification for this point, but then on the other hand I don't think that it's fair to say that one can't be a father/ mother figure because of what's inside your pants, or not. Fatherhood and motherhood roles are to a large extent defined by how people interact with children, rather than who is doing the interaction, and there is certainly every possibility for two men or two women to provide "both" roles. These things can be very tricky to define exactly, but if motherhood includes spending more time with the children when little, and fatherhood perhaps is the authority figure in the household, then in my childhood I think it's pretty much fair to say that my Dad played the mother figure and my Mum was the father. Make of that what you will.
Again, it comes down to the couple/ single parent in question, and any statements along the lines of "same-sex parents are better/ worse than heterosexual parents" might be statistically true as a whole but totally irrelevant in decided whether or not this couple should be able to have a child.
AOG
Futhermore, no-one gets your Hitler 'master race' reference, because as I have said before, women have already have this choice.
Situation a) a woman goes to a sperm bank and requests a white blue-eyed man with a college degree.
Situation b) a woman signs on to a dating agency and requests matches for men who are white, blue-eyed and with a college degree.
Situation c) a woman walks into a bar in Oxford and makes a beeline for a white chap with blue eyes. As they chat, she asks him what he majored in, in college.
You see - women have always had that choice. The master race analogy doesn't work in the context of sperm banks, unless the sperm bank deliberately rejected all donations apart from those who fitted a specific profile.
I understand why you wrote what you did, but it was I'll-conceived and doesn't really work.
Futhermore, no-one gets your Hitler 'master race' reference, because as I have said before, women have already have this choice.
Situation a) a woman goes to a sperm bank and requests a white blue-eyed man with a college degree.
Situation b) a woman signs on to a dating agency and requests matches for men who are white, blue-eyed and with a college degree.
Situation c) a woman walks into a bar in Oxford and makes a beeline for a white chap with blue eyes. As they chat, she asks him what he majored in, in college.
You see - women have always had that choice. The master race analogy doesn't work in the context of sperm banks, unless the sperm bank deliberately rejected all donations apart from those who fitted a specific profile.
I understand why you wrote what you did, but it was I'll-conceived and doesn't really work.
sp1814
I was referring to the politically correct UK.
Referring to the point that Children brought up by same sex couples fair better than those with a traditional Mother/Father relationship, how can anyone possible know that, they are children at the moment, what lasting effect it will have on them in later life, they have yet to find out.
/// Gay parenting is difficult to study because it is so new. In the history of human civilization, gay parenting has only recently become culturally accepted. To understand the effects on the children they raise, social scientists need more and larger samples and time — time for the kids raised by gays and lesbians to grow up and have outcomes that can be measured and compared to those raised by other family types. Allen and Regnerus point this out in their research and other reports. ///
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I was referring to the politically correct UK.
Referring to the point that Children brought up by same sex couples fair better than those with a traditional Mother/Father relationship, how can anyone possible know that, they are children at the moment, what lasting effect it will have on them in later life, they have yet to find out.
/// Gay parenting is difficult to study because it is so new. In the history of human civilization, gay parenting has only recently become culturally accepted. To understand the effects on the children they raise, social scientists need more and larger samples and time — time for the kids raised by gays and lesbians to grow up and have outcomes that can be measured and compared to those raised by other family types. Allen and Regnerus point this out in their research and other reports. ///
http://
It's a little known fact that blonde hair/blue eyes is actually the result of a deleted or malfuntioning melanin gene.
Had they won, they would have had the genetic researchers of the 60s done away with.
They would also be bumping off medical researchers who tell them that mixed-race offspring have lower incidence of inheritable diseases.
Now read up on the hazards of 'monoculture'.
Had they won, they would have had the genetic researchers of the 60s done away with.
They would also be bumping off medical researchers who tell them that mixed-race offspring have lower incidence of inheritable diseases.
Now read up on the hazards of 'monoculture'.
AOG
Regarding the Christian Post (not a famously impartial source when it comes to anything to do with gay rights) link...does that suggest that the UK doesn't have enough gay parents to warrant a UK based study, and that in the absence of such studies we need to look at a larger demographic, such as the US?
And do you agree that the Internet, being a global phenomenon is available for all to comment on?
And aren't these discussed at length on forums such as these? With both sides giving their robust approval/disapproval/don't really care?
Regarding the Christian Post (not a famously impartial source when it comes to anything to do with gay rights) link...does that suggest that the UK doesn't have enough gay parents to warrant a UK based study, and that in the absence of such studies we need to look at a larger demographic, such as the US?
And do you agree that the Internet, being a global phenomenon is available for all to comment on?
And aren't these discussed at length on forums such as these? With both sides giving their robust approval/disapproval/don't really care?
AOG, Your master race theory is irrational. Yes, people of whatever colour who have children through IVF will prefer those children to resemble them, but the fact is, statistically, very few go down that route. The melting pot will remain because the vast majority of the population will continue to have their families by doing what comes naturally – as they always have – and amen to that. ;o)
sp1814
Women have always had this choice you say? And then go on to list three situations.
Well apart from situation a)
/// Situation a) a woman goes to a sperm bank and requests a white blue-eyed man with a college degree. ///
We can rule the other two out seeing that we are discussing sperm banks:
/// Situation b) a woman signs on to a dating agency and requests matches for men who are white, blue-eyed and with a college degree. ///
/// Situation c) a woman walks into a bar in Oxford and makes a beeline for a white chap with blue eyes. As they chat, she asks him what he majored in, in college. ///
Now getting back to the sperm bank, I was unaware that all requests are catered for ie "Blue eyed blonde with a degree and plenty of money sperm" if this is correct and there are loads of different labelled receptacles that cater for all specific characteristics, then I hold up my hands in defeat.
Women have always had this choice you say? And then go on to list three situations.
Well apart from situation a)
/// Situation a) a woman goes to a sperm bank and requests a white blue-eyed man with a college degree. ///
We can rule the other two out seeing that we are discussing sperm banks:
/// Situation b) a woman signs on to a dating agency and requests matches for men who are white, blue-eyed and with a college degree. ///
/// Situation c) a woman walks into a bar in Oxford and makes a beeline for a white chap with blue eyes. As they chat, she asks him what he majored in, in college. ///
Now getting back to the sperm bank, I was unaware that all requests are catered for ie "Blue eyed blonde with a degree and plenty of money sperm" if this is correct and there are loads of different labelled receptacles that cater for all specific characteristics, then I hold up my hands in defeat.
naomi24
/// AOG, Your master race theory is irrational. ///
You may say that, but who knows how far it can go, this kind of thing can soon get completely out of hand?
They start off by selecting pure gene sperm, and it all leads to generic engineering
http://
https:/
http://
http://
Yes, people of whatever colour who have children through IVF will prefer those children to resemble them, but the fact is, statistically, very few go down that route. The melting pot will remain because the vast majority of the population will continue to have their families by doing what comes naturally – as they always have – and amen to that. ;o)
/// AOG, Your master race theory is irrational. ///
You may say that, but who knows how far it can go, this kind of thing can soon get completely out of hand?
They start off by selecting pure gene sperm, and it all leads to generic engineering
http://
https:/
http://
http://
Yes, people of whatever colour who have children through IVF will prefer those children to resemble them, but the fact is, statistically, very few go down that route. The melting pot will remain because the vast majority of the population will continue to have their families by doing what comes naturally – as they always have – and amen to that. ;o)
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