ChatterBank2 mins ago
Instead Of Throwing The Toys Out Of The Pram....
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why don't the 2 main parties try and understand why UKIP are gaining popularity. Is it just possible that the general public are sick of the EU and all it stands for? Could the main parties gain a lot more support if they started to understand rather than calling any non Euphile their usual batch of names?
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The two main parties have a lot more experience about running a country and managing trade and employment. Though they are at opposite ends of the political spectrum, they both agree that we are better off in the EU rather than out of it.
UKiP do not really have a thought out case for leaving. They are suspicious of foreigners and resent being told what to do by them. And that is their case. How we will replace jobs that are reliant on EU membership is never addressed.
UKiP will never be mainstream. They are a fringe Party. The will get the protest vote. People who are fed up of the Coalition Government but can't bring themselves to vote Labour will vote for UKiP.
Foreigners and immigrants are always a good scapegoat for mistakes and mismanagement. Even though the main parties support the EU, they are quick to use them as an excuse when they get things wrong.
UKiP do not really have a thought out case for leaving. They are suspicious of foreigners and resent being told what to do by them. And that is their case. How we will replace jobs that are reliant on EU membership is never addressed.
UKiP will never be mainstream. They are a fringe Party. The will get the protest vote. People who are fed up of the Coalition Government but can't bring themselves to vote Labour will vote for UKiP.
Foreigners and immigrants are always a good scapegoat for mistakes and mismanagement. Even though the main parties support the EU, they are quick to use them as an excuse when they get things wrong.
Yes gromit all very good but why are the main parties not looking into why the public are growing more EU sceptic? Then possibly they could make the EU more popular by addressing the problems. This may come as a shock but I actually think the EU is wonderful opportunity but it has sadly turned into everything I hate. If only we could correct it's many flaws.
planning your manifesto according to what the public want sounds like a nice idea, and yet when Blair did it, running everything past focus groups, everyone hated it. They thought he should just put what he wanted to do in his party's manifesto, let the public vote for Labour if they liked it, and then get on with the job.
Tora,
You will find that if we ever do get a referendum then the 3 main parties, the CBI, the Unions, the Chambers of Commerce, The Institute of Directs etc, will ALL go into overdrive for the staying IN campaign.
A referendum is a long way off, so there is no point in doing anything now. And anyway, the EU are a good thing to blame for their own failings.
Cameron could do with off loading the Eurosceptic wing of his party onto UKiP. They have been nothing but irritation for the party leaders for the last 25 years. If the Conservatives lose the election and UKiP does briefly shine, then the anti EU faction Tories might defect. Which would be good for the party in the long run.
You will find that if we ever do get a referendum then the 3 main parties, the CBI, the Unions, the Chambers of Commerce, The Institute of Directs etc, will ALL go into overdrive for the staying IN campaign.
A referendum is a long way off, so there is no point in doing anything now. And anyway, the EU are a good thing to blame for their own failings.
Cameron could do with off loading the Eurosceptic wing of his party onto UKiP. They have been nothing but irritation for the party leaders for the last 25 years. If the Conservatives lose the election and UKiP does briefly shine, then the anti EU faction Tories might defect. Which would be good for the party in the long run.
she was eased out eventually, Farriercm, but it's an interesting point. When the expenses scandal broke, it was Cameron who immediately took the opportunity to dump a few of his greedier MPs, while Brown did nothing but tut-tut. Maybe when they're in office, PMs find it more embarrassing to take decisive action against their own party?
// So all of those would ride rough shod over public opinion then? //
Yes they would. They will put their own self interests before public opinion which is often misinformed or plain wrong. The main parties genuinely believe the EU brings job, trade and security. The CBI, IoD see it a huge money making marketplace. The Unions see job security.
I am not the best person to convince you since I have my reservations about some aspects of the EU as well. I see the sense in forming a large single market and for that to work, harmonisation across member states. The imbalance in economies with France and Germany dominating direction to their advantage is a major problem which does not seem to be being addressed.
Yes they would. They will put their own self interests before public opinion which is often misinformed or plain wrong. The main parties genuinely believe the EU brings job, trade and security. The CBI, IoD see it a huge money making marketplace. The Unions see job security.
I am not the best person to convince you since I have my reservations about some aspects of the EU as well. I see the sense in forming a large single market and for that to work, harmonisation across member states. The imbalance in economies with France and Germany dominating direction to their advantage is a major problem which does not seem to be being addressed.
But if people are really as anti-EU as you say they are, why would they vote UKIP in the Euro elections TTT ? Even if every British MEP was a UKIP one, the decision to stay or leave the EEC is made in Westminster, not Brussels.
And if those UKIP supporters really want us to leave the ECC, then surely the best party to vote for at a General Election would be the Tories, because they are the only Party with a realistic chance of winning and bringing forward plans to leave. Labour and the LibDems have shown very little interest in leaving Europe.
Sorry to sound like a stuck record here but I still don't understand why so many people say that they support a party that cannot win the May 2015 election.
And if those UKIP supporters really want us to leave the ECC, then surely the best party to vote for at a General Election would be the Tories, because they are the only Party with a realistic chance of winning and bringing forward plans to leave. Labour and the LibDems have shown very little interest in leaving Europe.
Sorry to sound like a stuck record here but I still don't understand why so many people say that they support a party that cannot win the May 2015 election.
ToraToraTora
You asked:
"Is it just possible that the general public are sick of the EU and all it stands for?"
I think this might be the case, but unfortunately, the general public have not been presented with a balanced argument over our membership of the EU.
I can't remember ever reading articles which explain how UK business benefits from membership...
A European Commission study of the single market in 2007 found that the EU GDP was raised by 2.2 per cent (€233 billion) and 2.75 million jobs were created between the introduction of the single market in 1992 and 2006.
For the UK, that increase in GDP would have been around £25 billion.
The single market has brought an end to many of the non-tariff barriers to trade that used to exist in Europe.
The UK, traditionally an open, free trade economy, has benefited from the fact that the EU negotiates on behalf of the world’s largest single market – giving us far greater clout in such talks than we would have as an individual nation.
Another significant benefit to the UK from EU membership is the foreign direct investment (FDI) we receive – that is, investment in our economy from non-UK sources. Companies often locate in the UK precisely because we are inside the single market – for example, Nissan’s factory in Sunderland exports to the rest of the EU. FDI has risen considerably across the world since the 1970s.
EU competition law has been of great importance in opening up previously closed markets to new entrants, enabling British companies to expand on the continent. It has also enabled market monopolies to be tackled in a way not seen before in Europe – such as the Commission’s action against Microsoft.
The European Arrest Warrant (EAW) has been very important in bringing criminals to justice across Member State borders, preventing the long delays and sometimes politicised extradition processes seen in the recent past.
A key benefit from the single market is that businesses only have to deal with one set of rules rather than 27 different sets of rules when exporting to or operating in more than one EU Member State.
I think that the current EU narrative both within and outside the popular media makes it harder for voters to make an informed decision on membership.
You see, when people say they are sick of the EU and all it stands for, could it be that they don't actually know all of what it stands for?
You asked:
"Is it just possible that the general public are sick of the EU and all it stands for?"
I think this might be the case, but unfortunately, the general public have not been presented with a balanced argument over our membership of the EU.
I can't remember ever reading articles which explain how UK business benefits from membership...
A European Commission study of the single market in 2007 found that the EU GDP was raised by 2.2 per cent (€233 billion) and 2.75 million jobs were created between the introduction of the single market in 1992 and 2006.
For the UK, that increase in GDP would have been around £25 billion.
The single market has brought an end to many of the non-tariff barriers to trade that used to exist in Europe.
The UK, traditionally an open, free trade economy, has benefited from the fact that the EU negotiates on behalf of the world’s largest single market – giving us far greater clout in such talks than we would have as an individual nation.
Another significant benefit to the UK from EU membership is the foreign direct investment (FDI) we receive – that is, investment in our economy from non-UK sources. Companies often locate in the UK precisely because we are inside the single market – for example, Nissan’s factory in Sunderland exports to the rest of the EU. FDI has risen considerably across the world since the 1970s.
EU competition law has been of great importance in opening up previously closed markets to new entrants, enabling British companies to expand on the continent. It has also enabled market monopolies to be tackled in a way not seen before in Europe – such as the Commission’s action against Microsoft.
The European Arrest Warrant (EAW) has been very important in bringing criminals to justice across Member State borders, preventing the long delays and sometimes politicised extradition processes seen in the recent past.
A key benefit from the single market is that businesses only have to deal with one set of rules rather than 27 different sets of rules when exporting to or operating in more than one EU Member State.
I think that the current EU narrative both within and outside the popular media makes it harder for voters to make an informed decision on membership.
You see, when people say they are sick of the EU and all it stands for, could it be that they don't actually know all of what it stands for?
AOG
We have just gone through the longest recession in our history. The reason it lasted so long was that the banks were broke and were reluctant to loan money to companies. The result was no investment, 3 years of stagnation, no job creation, reduced working hours, reduced disposable income.
But the public (and some irresponsible politicians) will blame the lack of jobs on Eastern Europeans and the EU rather than the real culprits, the failed Government regulation and the Casino bankers.
We have just gone through the longest recession in our history. The reason it lasted so long was that the banks were broke and were reluctant to loan money to companies. The result was no investment, 3 years of stagnation, no job creation, reduced working hours, reduced disposable income.
But the public (and some irresponsible politicians) will blame the lack of jobs on Eastern Europeans and the EU rather than the real culprits, the failed Government regulation and the Casino bankers.
It's obvious why the general public are taking the anti-EU stance. Whenever economic difficulties occur, the populace look for a hate-figure to blame - the Gutter Press and UKIP sevre them up with a convenient whipping-boy - remember Germany in the Thirties and the Jews - history repeating itself here with a different victim.
TTT
Also...what would be the point of the two main parties changing policy to take advantage of public opinion. If you want out of Europe, vote UKIP. If you are happy to stay in Europe, then don't.
I would prefer to have a variety of options - because (and I don't think that many commentators acknowledge this...millions of UK citizens want to stay in Europe, and would not want their parties to switch to match what UKIP are offering.
Also...what would be the point of the two main parties changing policy to take advantage of public opinion. If you want out of Europe, vote UKIP. If you are happy to stay in Europe, then don't.
I would prefer to have a variety of options - because (and I don't think that many commentators acknowledge this...millions of UK citizens want to stay in Europe, and would not want their parties to switch to match what UKIP are offering.
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