Farage V Clegg

[Farriercm]

Looks like Farage won on points.

[jomifl]

LG, I'm not surprised at all, with his larynx at the wrong end of his digestive tract, I think he has little control over what issues forth.

[Orderlimit]

LG, try searching for Ben Herdman, see if thats the one

[LazyGun]

@ Orderlimit Ahh, thanks, will do! :)

[anotheoldgit]

It has been reported that Farage will come to regret his "EU has blood on it's hand" remark.

Well this is what he actually said, anyone agree or disagree?

/// FARAGE: 'IMPERIALIST' EU HAS BLOOD ON HANDS OVER UKRAINE ///

/// The European Union has 'blood on its hands' over the crisis in Ukraine by showing imperialist ambitions, Nigel Farage claimed during the debate. ///

/// The Ukip leader said that the British government and EU had 'geed up' those behind the uprising that ousted Ukrainian president
Viktor Yanukovych. ///

/// Protesters initially took to the streets in Ukraine to urge their government to join the EU and break ties with Russia. ///

/// The uprising began because Mr Yanukovych rejecting an association deal with the EU. ///

/// 'We should hang our heads in shame,' Mr Farage said, claiming Britain had encouraged the EU to pursue an 'imperialist, expansionist' agenda. ///

/// 'We have given a false series of hopes to a group of people in the western Ukraine and so geed up were they that they actually toppled their own elected leader,' he said. ///

/// 'That provoked Mr Putin and I think the European Union, frankly, does have blood on its hands in the Ukraine. ///

/// 'I don't want a European army, navy, air force or a European foreign policy. It has not been a thing for good in the Ukraine.' ///

[LazyGun]

"/// 'We should hang our heads in shame,' Mr Farage said, claiming Britain had encouraged the EU to pursue an 'imperialist, expansionist' agenda. ///"

Seems an extraordinarily anti-British sentiment form a UKip leader to take - I thought being anti-British was the sole preserve of the Left?

Yes, I would pretty much disagree with his entire analysis. I thought his defence of Putin extra-ordinary.

[naomi24]

Jom, Farage didn’t lie about the number of people entitled to come to the UK. If I remember correctly, he mentioned a figure of 29 million from Bulgaria and Rumania – the population of Bulgaria is around 7.5 million, and of Rumania approximately 21.5 million – so not too far out – and the population of the combined EU countries is well over 500 million – all of whom are entitled to come here to live. Additionally, I don’t think he lied about the number of laws Europe has introduced to this country.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/8067510/Up-to-half-of-British-laws-come-from-Europe-House-of-Commons-Library-claims.html

On the other hand, Clegg claimed it was just seven. :o/

[mikey4444]

jomifl...09:51...spot on there ! Wish I had said that !

[LazyGun]

Full fact references - worth a read;

Proportion of UK law influenced by the EU
https://fullfact.org/europe/eu_make_uk_law-29587

British opinion on the EU
https://fullfact.org/europe/public_opinion_europe_referendum_trust-30845

UK jobs and EU membership
https://fullfact.org/economy/jobs_dependent_linked_membership_trade_eu-30790


To claim that 29 million bulgars and romanians were going to flood the UK was always a hyperbolic and intentionally fear mongering claim; It would require the entirety of each population to decamp to the UK and hang a "closed" sign on 2 countries.

As is his claim that our borders are open to 500 million people within the EU. Open maybe, but not all of them will ever in a million years dream of uprooting themselves and coming here. Another hyperbolic claim.

[naomi24]

He didn’t claim any of that. He said they are entitled to come here – and they are.

[LazyGun]

Who cares if they are "entitled" or not? It is the actual numbers of economic migrants that is at issue here, not the totality of the populations. You might just as well say that 70 million UK residents are entitled to emigrate to Germany. It is just as meaningless a comment.

[naomi24]

//Who cares if they are "entitled" or not? //

The man in the audience whose business was suffering through cheap imported labour cared.

[jomifl]

Naomi, he implied that the entire populations of Bulgaria and Romania were waiting with bags packed, which was not true..
Which EU 'imposed ' laws would you get rid of?

[LazyGun]

He cares because of economic migrants. Not because of the sum totals of countries out there that might be "entitled".

The only reason UKip and Farage trumpeted the 29 million nonsense ahead of the lifting on Visa restrictions of the bulgarians and romanians was entirely as a scare tactic, much as stating that 500 million europeans are "entitled" to live in the UK.

It is hyperbolic nonsense, calculated to scare.

[naomi24]

Jom, No - he didn't. He simply indicated the numbers of people who are entitled to come here - and he's right.

Why are you asking me which laws I would get rid of? What does that have to do with the discussion?

[cassa333]

Is there anywcan watch it? I can't find it on iplayer!!

[naomi24]

//It is hyperbolic nonsense, calculated to scare. //

Similar to that trumpeted by the Europhiles who forecast doom should we leave Europe then.

[LazyGun]

"Similar to that trumpeted by the Europhiles who forecast doom should we leave Europe then"

Exactly the same, yes. I dislike all politicians from either side of the political divide who use such hyperbolic and inflammatory language.

Pointing out that current EU policy means an influx of economic migrants from the less well off countries within the EU to the better off ones is perfectly correct and proper, because it is true; Attempting to scare people by headlining a poster with the totality of the population of a country or an economic trading bloc and equating that to the potential number of immigrants is febrile nonsense.

In just the same way, attempting to claim that 4.5 million ( or 3 million) jobs would be lost if we were to leave the EU is hyperbolic nonsense - although it is right to explore what effect leaving the EU might have on jobs within the UK, especially those companies whose major trading partners are within the EU bloc.

And this is an in/out referendum we are talking about here; Not renegotiation of membership, but whether we should be part of the club at all.

[naomi24]

Exactly. Thank you for that.

[LazyGun]

No need to thank me, Naomi. I am not conceding anything to you. It is not as if you have persuaded me that your defence of UKip and Farage is correct, or that the point I have previously made are incorrect.

Ukip and Farage were needlessly inflammatory and hyperbolic with their claims, and the only reason for mentioning total populations of trading blocs or countries is to scare. I find that tactic contemptible.

[naomi24]

I hadn’t assumed you were conceding anything to me – simply that we were in agreement that both sides of the argument employ language that may be viewed as inflammatory, hyperbolic, and contemptible by the opposition.