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Sensitive Subject But I Think We Are Up To It.
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Is WW1 depicted fairly in the various comedic productions mentioned in this link?
For example Gove says:
"He added: "The conflict has, for many, been seen through the fictional prism of dramas such as Oh, What a Lovely War!, The Monocled Mutineer and Blackadder, as a misbegotten shambles - a series of catastrophic mistakes perpetrated by an out-of-touch elite.
"Even to this day there are left-wing academics all too happy to feed those myths.""
Now I should point out that my own knowledge of the actual situations and events is limited so I'm trying to be neutral here.
Is WW1 depicted fairly in the various comedic productions mentioned in this link?
For example Gove says:
"He added: "The conflict has, for many, been seen through the fictional prism of dramas such as Oh, What a Lovely War!, The Monocled Mutineer and Blackadder, as a misbegotten shambles - a series of catastrophic mistakes perpetrated by an out-of-touch elite.
"Even to this day there are left-wing academics all too happy to feed those myths.""
Now I should point out that my own knowledge of the actual situations and events is limited so I'm trying to be neutral here.
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Gove rejects Robinson's claim that he was attacking teachers. I'm not sure what other possible meaning his reference to left-wing academics can have, but perhaps it is a coded reference to the notorious traitor Ralph Milliband?
As for the reference to Blackadder... Reminds me of George Bush Sr's campaign call for America to be more like the Waltons and less like the Simpsons, which attracted a lot of derision. (Bart's response: "Hey, we're like the Waltons. We're praying for an end to the depression, too." )
Politicians should probably refrain from drawing foolish parallels between TV series and the outside world.
As for the reference to Blackadder... Reminds me of George Bush Sr's campaign call for America to be more like the Waltons and less like the Simpsons, which attracted a lot of derision. (Bart's response: "Hey, we're like the Waltons. We're praying for an end to the depression, too." )
Politicians should probably refrain from drawing foolish parallels between TV series and the outside world.
If I'm not mistaken
Trench warfare was first observed in the American Civil War
The Gatling gun appeared either during that war or somewhere between it and the time of the Boer War
None of the commanding officers at the outset of WW1 would have known that the familiar "war of movement" would reach a point of stalemate and entrenchment so soon into the conflict.
One of the most telling vignettes in Blackadder was the one where Haigh accuses Blackadder of being a spy because he revealed knowledge of Hagh's 'secret' plan of climbing out of the trenches en masse and charging towards the enemy machine guns... again.
Then again, who are we to criticise? What other way could they have done it, until the tank arrived on the scene.
Trench warfare was first observed in the American Civil War
The Gatling gun appeared either during that war or somewhere between it and the time of the Boer War
None of the commanding officers at the outset of WW1 would have known that the familiar "war of movement" would reach a point of stalemate and entrenchment so soon into the conflict.
One of the most telling vignettes in Blackadder was the one where Haigh accuses Blackadder of being a spy because he revealed knowledge of Hagh's 'secret' plan of climbing out of the trenches en masse and charging towards the enemy machine guns... again.
Then again, who are we to criticise? What other way could they have done it, until the tank arrived on the scene.
Gove's article names Richard Evans, who has probably forgotten more about WW1 than Gove will ever know.
Gove's attitude is ludicrous. The jist of his article is that history needs to be "patriotic" rather than accurate, and that presenting WW1 as a waste of human life is disrespectful ("denigrating" was his word) towards Britain and those who were killed. It is beyond stupid.
Gove's attitude is ludicrous. The jist of his article is that history needs to be "patriotic" rather than accurate, and that presenting WW1 as a waste of human life is disrespectful ("denigrating" was his word) towards Britain and those who were killed. It is beyond stupid.
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No they WERE buffoons and the men were lions led by donkeys.
and Jellicoe DID say -'there's something wrong with our bloody ships today' when the Germans sank a lot of them
and you dont have to be left wing to recognise a catastrophically bad General - that includes ALL at Gallipolli
Read Lloyd George's war memoirs - start with Vol V - I think the first page is page 2250. "I met an incredibly efficient junior officer, and I knew it was only a matter of time before his seniors recognised his talent and sent him to the front line" - blimey !
A J P Taylor does a good picture book on the Great War. Do 1914, 1915 for the first massacres then skip 1916,1917 ( all associated with failed offensives and millions of casualties ) and rejoin at 1918.
and yes it is true - the casualties were printed on the front page of the Times and then when it filled up - they stopped that and the only way you could find out whether your brother or father was dead was hop on a train to London and look at the noticeboards outside the War Office and Buckingham Palace.
[ when I as a kid the really old veterans were from the Boer War ]
No they WERE buffoons and the men were lions led by donkeys.
and Jellicoe DID say -'there's something wrong with our bloody ships today' when the Germans sank a lot of them
and you dont have to be left wing to recognise a catastrophically bad General - that includes ALL at Gallipolli
Read Lloyd George's war memoirs - start with Vol V - I think the first page is page 2250. "I met an incredibly efficient junior officer, and I knew it was only a matter of time before his seniors recognised his talent and sent him to the front line" - blimey !
A J P Taylor does a good picture book on the Great War. Do 1914, 1915 for the first massacres then skip 1916,1917 ( all associated with failed offensives and millions of casualties ) and rejoin at 1918.
and yes it is true - the casualties were printed on the front page of the Times and then when it filled up - they stopped that and the only way you could find out whether your brother or father was dead was hop on a train to London and look at the noticeboards outside the War Office and Buckingham Palace.
[ when I as a kid the really old veterans were from the Boer War ]
Steve5 seems a tad removed from reality. if Germany was so "advanced in tactics" why didn't they deploy some of them to win.
Gove is right about this and what he says works on many things. how many people think that what they see on TV or film is fact. when it is absolute tosh. films like "braveheart" spring to mind. good film but utter rubbish in the historical fact department.
Gove is right about this and what he says works on many things. how many people think that what they see on TV or film is fact. when it is absolute tosh. films like "braveheart" spring to mind. good film but utter rubbish in the historical fact department.
The problem is there has not been an objective discussion about WWI for many years if at all and public perceptions are primarily based on the work of the war poets and popular shows like Blackadder and almost by definition come from a leftist/pacifist point of view.
Many veterans, particularly pre-conscription volunteers, were emphatic that Owen, Sassoon, Brooke et al were not representative of them or their reasons for choosing to fight
As pointed out elsewhere, Blackadder is a sitcom but in the absence of any other point of reference most people would draw the conclusion that Haig, for instance, was an unfeeling monster condemning thousands to death without a second thought when in fact compared with overall commander of the BEF, Sir John French, and his counterpart in II Corps, Smith Dorrien, Haig is actually the better tactician with more concern for his troops.
Unfortunately the BEF was fully trained to fight their previous war; the same way we fought an offensive war in sub-artic conditions in the Falklands equipped for a defensive war temperate Northern Europe, so we employed Boer War tactics against modern weaponry. The Germans, French, Russians and Austrians displayed a similar lack of understanding and suffered accordingly.
Many veterans, particularly pre-conscription volunteers, were emphatic that Owen, Sassoon, Brooke et al were not representative of them or their reasons for choosing to fight
As pointed out elsewhere, Blackadder is a sitcom but in the absence of any other point of reference most people would draw the conclusion that Haig, for instance, was an unfeeling monster condemning thousands to death without a second thought when in fact compared with overall commander of the BEF, Sir John French, and his counterpart in II Corps, Smith Dorrien, Haig is actually the better tactician with more concern for his troops.
Unfortunately the BEF was fully trained to fight their previous war; the same way we fought an offensive war in sub-artic conditions in the Falklands equipped for a defensive war temperate Northern Europe, so we employed Boer War tactics against modern weaponry. The Germans, French, Russians and Austrians displayed a similar lack of understanding and suffered accordingly.
I was very interested in WWI when I was young. My grandmother's two brothers were killed on the battlefield, and my grandma had medals and books. So I took an interest. Most of my information came from my grandma and she certainly wasn't in any way leftwing. Yet I was told about the carnage for no gain. The futility of gaining a few yards today, to lose it tomorrow. The industrial scale of killing from both sides. And the war to end all wars - but it wasn't. This was pre Blackadder and I had never seen Oh what a wonderful war!
So I think Gove is totally wrong. Opinions about the waste of it all came from the family of those bereaved not from leftwing acedamics and crap stand up comedians. The common wisdom might be wrong but it didn't come from the leftwingers trying to belittle those killed. And Blackadder reflected the common wisdom, it didn't rewrite it.
We are all fortunate the kaiser was defeated. The victory was hard earned. We should remember those that fought and those that gave ip their lives. Gove appears to be remembering the victory and forgetting the sacrifice of the many.
So I think Gove is totally wrong. Opinions about the waste of it all came from the family of those bereaved not from leftwing acedamics and crap stand up comedians. The common wisdom might be wrong but it didn't come from the leftwingers trying to belittle those killed. And Blackadder reflected the common wisdom, it didn't rewrite it.
We are all fortunate the kaiser was defeated. The victory was hard earned. We should remember those that fought and those that gave ip their lives. Gove appears to be remembering the victory and forgetting the sacrifice of the many.
I remember that when I was at school, a teacher told us that there was no such thing as unbiased history because all available accounts are based on an individual point of view. I think this is true whether the accounts are gleaned from academic history texts, individual soldiers' stories or film and programme makers.
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"I am a bit shocked to learn that students are taught about WWI by watching episodes of Blackadder in class."
I wouldn't be. My memory of school is that it was sometimes put on on the last day of term when all of the curriculum had been taught. I imagine if it's used at all, it'll be in that kind of capacity.
I wouldn't be. My memory of school is that it was sometimes put on on the last day of term when all of the curriculum had been taught. I imagine if it's used at all, it'll be in that kind of capacity.
But this is the way History is taught these days.
Talk to schoolkids today and ask them why Britain went to war in 1939 and invariably the answer will be to save the Jews from the Nazis.
When you say that we actually went to war because we made an ill thought out promise to stand by Poland come what may and got dragged into a war that we neither had the preparation or the wherewithall to fight and you are swiftly put straight with the self assurance that only a 15 year old can muster - it was for the Jews and the fact that the Final Solution only really got going in 1942 is of no consequence
History is, by and large, whatever the previous generation say it was; we now live in a society where Prime Ministers apologise for offences that happened generations ago and ignore things that were done that genuinely made the world a better place to live in
Talk to schoolkids today and ask them why Britain went to war in 1939 and invariably the answer will be to save the Jews from the Nazis.
When you say that we actually went to war because we made an ill thought out promise to stand by Poland come what may and got dragged into a war that we neither had the preparation or the wherewithall to fight and you are swiftly put straight with the self assurance that only a 15 year old can muster - it was for the Jews and the fact that the Final Solution only really got going in 1942 is of no consequence
History is, by and large, whatever the previous generation say it was; we now live in a society where Prime Ministers apologise for offences that happened generations ago and ignore things that were done that genuinely made the world a better place to live in
