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Another "right On" Liberal Professor Living On Another Planet?

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ToraToraTora | 10:54 Wed 14th Aug 2013 | News
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This has also been mentioned in the Chatterbank section, link here:

http://www.theanswerbank.co.uk/ChatterBank/Question1267290.html

Not sure what I think of her idea, except a question for you: do you think the current approach is working? Since the answer is presumably "no", given the relatively high crime rate and rate of re-offending on release from prison, does it not make sense to seek an alternative approach? Perhaps not this one, but an alternative nonetheless.
Yeah, Oxford Professors and London School of Economics Graduates must be liberal lefties.

It couldn't be that they are righties but know something about the topic which they are talking about.
What defines this Professor as liberal, Tora? That the Professor comes up with an alternative solution? My, you must think the great scientists of the past (and James Dyson) are or were 'right on liberals', if that is the case. All suggested answers which were unconventional or counter-intuitive and, you know what, some of them were right !
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I rarely go to drivelbank, sorry.
Question Author
"do you think the current approach is working? Since the answer is presumably "no", given the relatively high crime rate and rate of re-offending on release from prison, does it not make sense to seek an alternative approach? Perhaps not this one, but an alternative nonetheless. "

They don't fear prison, let's try an alternative approach, lock them up for longer in proper prisons, build some more if necessary, the Liberal approach hasn't worked either they get out of their Butlins experience not afraid to go back, in fact, jail is rent free with 3 meals a day, a lot of non criminals are worse off.

"What defines this Professor as liberal, Tora?" - you are kidding right?

In short make it a deterent, yes I know, standard "in doesn't deter" left argument comming here, 5 years in the nick will deter most, nothing is 100% deterent but for the hard line recidivists at least they'll be off the street.

We've tried the holiday camp approach now let's try the Midnight express approach!
The "harsh" approach was tried earlier. For most of our history in fact. I don't think it was any more successful, really.

The best deterrent isn't necessarily harsh punishment, but increasing the likelihood of capture.
The hard line approach has been tried - for example sheep-stealing was once a capital offence. Today it is nowhere near as harshly dealt with yet sheep stealing has declined since the capital offence days. So the more liberal approach would appear to be efficacious.



@3T and once again you tar "The Left" with association. I know many of "The Left" who are cheerful members of the "hang em high" brigade. Equally, I know many from "the right" who think prisons especially for non-violent crime are a huge drain on resources, and on their pocket.

Your obvious antipathy toward "the left" ("In short make it a deterent, yes I know, standard "in doesn't deter" left argument comming here") and your consistent and repeated confusion between what is liberal/progressive thinking and what constitutes left wing thoughts utterly devalues your comments, and is wearisome.

There are lots and lots of scholars and studies which show that the threat of jail time does not act as a deterrent. Rather, the prospect of being caught at all is a greater deterrent.

So lock up for a long time those repeat and serial serious offenders, those who are violent etc - but we really do need to at least consider what other options are available. The true test of the worth of an idea is not whether it meets your personal approval or not, but whether it is effective in what it is designed to do.
I must be living on the same planet as the professor then, because i entirely agree with his proposal.

I would not advocate a continual rolling non-prison sanction - if offenders persist, then punishments should increase in proportion, leading to prison.

That said, the ecconomic saving in the reduced prison population, which can be diverted to deserving areas such as health and education, combined with a programme of reparation and community activity seems to me a far better system than the current one, which clearly fails in its intended objective, with vast unrecoverable outlays of finance involved.

So TTT, if the profesor is 'right on', then so am I.

OK?
Canary42

/// The hard line approach has been tried - for example sheep-stealing was once a capital offence. Today it is nowhere near as harshly dealt with yet sheep stealing has declined since the capital offence days. So the more liberal approach would appear to be efficacious. ///

That is a ridiculous statement, almost like saying there are nowhere the same amount of highway robberies since it was no longer a capital offence.

But what is true is the fact that murders have doubled since the abolishment of capital punishment.

andy-hughes

So you would wish these criminals to walk freely on our streets then Andy, so as to continue their life of crime?

have you thought that the next victim of their crimes might be you or those you hold dear? This of course might have otherwise been avoided, had they had been safely locked up behind bars.
I'm not sure that's true, or it may depend on teh source. This one here:

http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/l.j.hurst/murderrt.htm

Suggests that the rise in murder rate occurred mainly in the years following 1945 until the 60s. But it was in the 60s that Capital Punishment was abolished. I'm not sure there is any established causal link between capital punishment and murder rate. One need only look at the US to see that.
///That is a ridiculous statement, almost like saying there are nowhere the same amount of highway robberies since it was no longer a capital offence. ///

The point I was making, but which is obviously too subtle for your knee-jerk intelligence, is that social changes reduce crime, so let's try that approach.

And incidentally highway robbery is now a multi-million pound crime, far more costly than when it was a capital offence - but hey, don't let facts get in the way of your all-too-frequent diatribes.
Canary42

/// And incidentally highway robbery is now a multi-million pound crime, far more costly than when it was a capital offence - but hey, don't let facts get in the way of your all-too-frequent diatribes. ///

Better not drive down the highway in my car then, in case I am held up at gun point.

The last crime that could be loosely called a highway robbery was called "The Great Train Robbery" know anything differently?
-- answer removed --
jim360

/// I'm not sure that's true, ///

Would I lie?

*** Using the Home Office's recorded crime statistics and population estimates from the Office for National Statistics, we can see that the homicide rate in 2009/10 was 11.2, compared to 6.3 in 1964, close to a doubling, if somewhat short. ***
AOG - "So you would wish these criminals to walk freely on our streets then Andy, so as to continue their life of crime?

have you thought that the next victim of their crimes might be you or those you hold dear? This of course might have otherwise been avoided, had they had been safely locked up behind bars."

Nowhere have I said or implied that these criminals should be free to walk the streets.

The next victim may be me, or mine, but that applies to anyone released from the current non-effective system, so that is hardly a barrier to thinking about change is it?
I wonder whom you are quoting there, AOG...

At the very least, there is no established causal link between the abolition of Capital Punishment and rising violent crime and murder. Most people who murder don't normally think through the full consequences, or at the very least spend time trying not to get caught. So, we should try to increase the detection rate.
triggerhippy

Robberies yes but hardly "Highway Robberies" unless you class ASDA's car park or stationary outside a bank, as the highway.

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