Britainastan?

[123everton]

If every Muslim in the country moved to the south west of England, declared their own state and called it Britainastan, a Muslim state with law founded on Muslim principles, it then invited Muslims from all over the world to live there and offered state grants to resettle (funded perhaps by the Saudis), that the facts on the ground with local self determination resulted in the U.N recognising this new state.
Would you resist?
If so, at what point, when, would you accept this eventuality?

[123everton]

So, if it happend here what dignified and civilised forms of opposition would you espouse?
To deal succinctly with the point raised, 1400 civilians died when Israel attacked the Gaza strip, many of the political prisoners held by Israel are children.

[naomi24]

I suspect you're addressing me Everton. I wouldn't be blowing people up, and neither would I be aiming futile weapons at Goliath because that's never going to work. Is that going to stop Israel? Of course it isn't. Far better to abandon armed conflict and attempt to gain every nation's sympathy and respect by reclaiming their dignity and putting their case before the world in a rational manner. I assume you think they're handling it correctly then?

[123everton]

You're telling me vaguely what you wouldn't do and how you'd do it.
The world has said Israel will continue to exist, for those who have lost their land and property this is unacceptible, if someone stole your house how long would you tire of seeking sympathy?
Israeli attacks on Palestinians are indiscriminate, the difference being that the Palestinians have no regular army, they attack tanks with stones and get shot for it, resistance is all they have left.
Might is not always right, they can demonstrate, noone listens, they can protest, noone cares, they can fight and the world will watch and when they die the world can see the nature of their occupation.
The Arab Isareali is taxed without representation has no bona fide right to their property, if they demonstrate they get attacked by the police.
If you were a Palestinian would you not resist, if you were English, as in the question, would you not resist?
Would you not support the people who resist?
Israel's responses to Hamas attacks are disproportinate and illegal, Israel doesn't want a two state solution.

[naomi24]

Vaguely? I've told you quite clearly what I'd do. Anyway, why are you arguing with me? I'm on their side. Or is it that you just can't resist it? It seems even when I'm in agreement with you, you're intent on disagreeing with me. Funny that. ;o)

[Sqad]

Everton....you are clearly Pro-Arab and I respect that.
You have brought over into S&C a thread started in News......as bait....I suspect ;-)
You have also widened the discussion as to what you had intended to do.
Israel and Hamas are at WAR, blockades, killings, obscenities are a part of war.
I respect the Arab argument and respect the Israeli stance........if the solution is as simple as some ABers think then we would not be in the status quo.
If I was being mortared by the Muslims in the South of England, I would retaliate, just as the Israelis are doing to Gazza. If Southern English Muslim women and children were killed in the crossfire, then so be it.

[123everton]

You've only stated what you wouldn't do, you haven't stated what you would do, or how.
Sqad, I'm not pro Arab as such.
I've placed the thread here as it's not news, but it is an analogy based on a news story.
The issue is indeed very complex, the only precedent I can think of for a solution is the treaty of Vereeniging, and that still produced what were known as "bitter enders."
Israel exists, that's a fact, it exists because it suited us in the west for it to exist, that's a fact, it still suits us for it to exist, that's a fact, it's not going to cease to exist, that's a fact.
How do you compensate a people, or the persons who have been dispossessed?
When should they accept the eventuality?
There is no collateral damage to civilians in this conflict, civilians are the target on both sides, the difference being that Israel has a standing army, it is the legally accredited occupier so is bound by international law to treat it's subjects correctly.

[naomi24]

What's this then? //Far better to abandon armed conflict and attempt to gain every nation's sympathy and respect by reclaiming their dignity and putting their case before the world in a rational manner.//

Are you ever going to read other people's posts, Everton? That's a bad habit you have there.

[123everton]

How though?
When they demonstrate in Israel the police attack them.
When the U.N rules against Israel, Israel ignores them.
People are being evicted within Israel to build Jewish settlements, farmland's getting stolen, the only thing that attracts the world's notice is bloodshed.
How do you negotiate with a tank?
How do you reason with an Apache helicopter?
How do you discus a problem with artillery shells?
This is collective punishment of the Palestinians, and the world watches, wonders and sympathises.
And achieves nothing.

[scotman]

The main reason the world stands by and does nothing is that the Palestinians or Palestine have nothing that anyone else wants, so far.

[naomi24]

Ask someone else. You clearly don't read my responses.

[Rev Sermon]

Everton,

To answer your original question, I think you have to consider the original inhabitants too. If everybody in Cornwall emigrated then muslims moved in and filled the void I might not overly object if they seceded from the UK provided they wanted nothing more from us i.e. no state handouts etc.

Regarding Palestine I actually support both sides to an extent and condemn both sides to an extent. Israel have a right to defend themselves but are far too heavy handed and many of their actions cannot be justified.

It seems on the other hand whenever the Israelis do make concessions and talking commences sooner or later someone on the Palestinian side will spit their dummy out and start firing rockets or blowing somebody up and any hope of peaceful negotiaion just collapses.

I don't know the answer but it seems a minority on both sides are responsible for the suffering of huge numbers of innocent parties.

[Rev Sermon]

Naomi,

I didn't read what you said but I disagree anyway :-)

Sorry, I just couldn't resist that one.

[123everton]

There are people who don't want peace, be honest if I moved into your house, kicked you out and then said you can have the shed and a bit of the garden back as a bit of a comprimise would you be happy with that.
They have appealed to the world for help, none is forthcoming, so what next?
Riots are the language of the voiceless, I don't see how they can act any other way.

[cal11pyso5]

Unfortunately,as with every problem in this world,minorities rule by fear,there will always be war and conflict,until religions can agree to tolerate each others beliefs

[Rev Sermon]

Ev,

In your example I would go to the police. The global equivalent is the UN. As I said earlier when the Americans and others set up peace talks you then had a rocket attack which brought them crashing down. Now I'm not blaming the Arabs but as a suggestion if they kept their own dissidents and insurgents under control perhaps peace talks would have more of a chance.

[naomi24]

Rev, ha ha! Oh so you noticed that too? It's nothing new. ;o)

[Rev Sermon]

Naomi,

I think we're all guilty of it to a greater or lesser extent. My problem tends to be with longer posts such as yours or Everton's there can often be several points in there and I will respond to one but miss another. That aside, I just love you and Everton getting at each other. Please keep it up.

[naomi24]

^^ Mmmm. Almost Rev. ;o)

[123everton]

Rev, the police aren't interested.
The Vice President went to Israel, on the day he arrived the Israelis announced they were expanding the settlements, the principle reason for the visit was to prevent this.
The Israeli's attack this vessel, and now the American's are ok with settlement building.
The idea that they should ask the world to show sympathy and support has been tried, to no noticeable effect.