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Israeli killers used UK passports to facilitate a murder in Dubai.
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This is a pariah state on a par with apartheid South Africa. When is the west going to do something about it?
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Sandy-Wroe – “If you're profiting from a crime then, it seems to me, that you are complicit in it. The people who settled on Palestinian land in what is now southern Israel knew well what they were doing and the possible consequences of their actions.”
Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're saying is that they [the Israeli settlers] should expect to be murdered and no one should have any sympathy for them as they had it coming.
I believe that you are wrong. Using your logic, the death of any British soldier should not be mourned by anyone as they, “... knew well what they were doing and the possible consequences of their actions”.
In effect, you're saying that some people's lives are worth more than others - which is exactly how terrorists justify terrorism.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're saying is that they [the Israeli settlers] should expect to be murdered and no one should have any sympathy for them as they had it coming.
I believe that you are wrong. Using your logic, the death of any British soldier should not be mourned by anyone as they, “... knew well what they were doing and the possible consequences of their actions”.
In effect, you're saying that some people's lives are worth more than others - which is exactly how terrorists justify terrorism.
Sandy-Wroe – You seem confident in the claim that Israel has stolen land from the Palestinians. The assumption being that the Palestinian people are the rightful owners of this land who are being pushed out by the Jewish people – arguably the most persecuted people in history. Are you sure this is correct in a historical context?
As I understand it, these lands have changed hands so many times throughout history that anyone stating that they have a legitimate claim on them is treading on very dodgy ground indeed.
For instance, here's a list (which is not exhaustive) of those who have had control of these lands....
The Persian Empire;
The Greeks;
Jewish;
Romans;
The Byzantine Empire;
Islamic Empire;
Christian Empire;
The Ottoman Empire;
Egyptians;
So remind me again, who has legitimate claim to these lands?
As I understand it, these lands have changed hands so many times throughout history that anyone stating that they have a legitimate claim on them is treading on very dodgy ground indeed.
For instance, here's a list (which is not exhaustive) of those who have had control of these lands....
The Persian Empire;
The Greeks;
Jewish;
Romans;
The Byzantine Empire;
Islamic Empire;
Christian Empire;
The Ottoman Empire;
Egyptians;
So remind me again, who has legitimate claim to these lands?
DrFilth – I've just watched the video you posted on Thursday, 18 Feb 2010 at 09:56 and I couldn't help thinking that it's a mock up.
I know I'll probably get lambasted for writing this, but it looked wrong. The quick cuts to the gunmen; the 'collapse' of the reporter... it somehow looked a bit 'staged' to me. Everything is just a bit too 'convenient'.
Don't get me wrong, for all my arguments about the legitimacy of who owns what land etc., I accept that the Israeli army are often recklessly indiscriminate and are (rightly in my opinion) heavily criticised.
But that clip.... I'm not buying it.
I know I'll probably get lambasted for writing this, but it looked wrong. The quick cuts to the gunmen; the 'collapse' of the reporter... it somehow looked a bit 'staged' to me. Everything is just a bit too 'convenient'.
Don't get me wrong, for all my arguments about the legitimacy of who owns what land etc., I accept that the Israeli army are often recklessly indiscriminate and are (rightly in my opinion) heavily criticised.
But that clip.... I'm not buying it.
Birdie1971,
"As I understand it, these lands have changed hands so many times throughout history that anyone stating that they have a legitimate claim on them is treading on very dodgy ground indeed."
Are you accepting, as you seem to be from the above, that the only claim that the Israeli settlers have to the land they occupy is based on their ability to steal it, and having stolen it, hold on to it?
"As I understand it, these lands have changed hands so many times throughout history that anyone stating that they have a legitimate claim on them is treading on very dodgy ground indeed."
Are you accepting, as you seem to be from the above, that the only claim that the Israeli settlers have to the land they occupy is based on their ability to steal it, and having stolen it, hold on to it?
DrFilth – No I don't think that the video posted on Friday, 08:16 on 19th February 2010 is a fake. That's not the point I was making and you know it. I was commenting on a specific video that you posted earlier.
And as I stated, “...I accept that the Israeli army are often recklessly indiscriminate and are (rightly in my opinion) heavily criticised.”
I think I've made myself clear on this point.
And as I stated, “...I accept that the Israeli army are often recklessly indiscriminate and are (rightly in my opinion) heavily criticised.”
I think I've made myself clear on this point.
Sandy - “Are you accepting, as you seem to be from the above, that the only claim that the Israeli settlers have to the land they occupy is based on their ability to steal it, and having stolen it, hold on to it?”
I could ask you same question about the Palestinians. Haven't they seized these lands in the past, lost them and now want their stolen lands back?
Neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians are blameless in all this. They are just as guilty as one another of using violence to obtain land.
What would be your solution to this problem? Are you suggesting that the Israeli nation be disbanded and all lands 'given back to' the Palestinians (even though their claims to these lands are historically questionable)?
What should we then do with the now displaced 7 million plus Israelis?
I could ask you same question about the Palestinians. Haven't they seized these lands in the past, lost them and now want their stolen lands back?
Neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians are blameless in all this. They are just as guilty as one another of using violence to obtain land.
What would be your solution to this problem? Are you suggesting that the Israeli nation be disbanded and all lands 'given back to' the Palestinians (even though their claims to these lands are historically questionable)?
What should we then do with the now displaced 7 million plus Israelis?
Emotion bedevils this debate. The Israelis are portrayed in the British press as a big, bad, oppressive nation. The Palestinians are portrayed as helpless, oppressed, down-trodden people. A modern day David and Goliath story.
The reality is somewhat different.
Without going into a potted history of this region, I think it's safe to say that there is an equal amount of aggression on both sides. I believe that neither the Palestinians nor the Israelis have moral superiority over the other.
DrFilth has posted several videos showing Israeli violence and intolerance to the Palestinian people. However, I'm sure that even the meanest of intelligences will recognise that violence and intolerance exists on both sides.
If you want a demonstration of sickening intolerance, have a look at this clip from a Palestinian children's TV show that advocates the murder of the Jewish people and the world domination of Islam.
The reality is somewhat different.
Without going into a potted history of this region, I think it's safe to say that there is an equal amount of aggression on both sides. I believe that neither the Palestinians nor the Israelis have moral superiority over the other.
DrFilth has posted several videos showing Israeli violence and intolerance to the Palestinian people. However, I'm sure that even the meanest of intelligences will recognise that violence and intolerance exists on both sides.
If you want a demonstration of sickening intolerance, have a look at this clip from a Palestinian children's TV show that advocates the murder of the Jewish people and the world domination of Islam.
Birdie 1971,
"Neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians are blameless in all this. They are just as guilty as one another of using violence to obtain land."
Really? Could you remind me where, and when, during the 60 plus years of the life of Israel, that the Palestinians have taken land from the Zionists?
"Neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians are blameless in all this. They are just as guilty as one another of using violence to obtain land."
Really? Could you remind me where, and when, during the 60 plus years of the life of Israel, that the Palestinians have taken land from the Zionists?
Sandy - “Could you remind me where, and when, during the 60 plus years of the life of Israel, that the Palestinians have taken land from the Zionists?”
No I cannot 'remind' you.
Are you deliberately being obtuse?
How many different ways can I put this? The Palestinians have no greater claim on this land than the Israelis.
The whole area has been in dispute for centuries.
What makes you so adamant in your claim that the land belongs to the Palestinians?
No I cannot 'remind' you.
Are you deliberately being obtuse?
How many different ways can I put this? The Palestinians have no greater claim on this land than the Israelis.
The whole area has been in dispute for centuries.
What makes you so adamant in your claim that the land belongs to the Palestinians?
Birdie 1971,
I know that I've never used the word "Jewish" in any of my posts about Israel. By attributing the phrase "Israeli/Jewish" to me, as you did in your last post here, you're implying that I'm an anti-Semite. That's not the case.
We have a situation where a powerful country squats like a malignant growth in the body politic. Their actions effect us all indirectly. The sense of injustice engendered by the treatment of the Palestinians helped motivate the perpetrators of 9-11 and the London bombings.
The race, or religion, of victims and aggressors is of no concern to me. A crime against humanity is a crime whoever commits it.
You asked what should happen to the Israelis and then put words into my mouth to answer your own question. I will answer you now. They could go back to where they came from.
I know that I've never used the word "Jewish" in any of my posts about Israel. By attributing the phrase "Israeli/Jewish" to me, as you did in your last post here, you're implying that I'm an anti-Semite. That's not the case.
We have a situation where a powerful country squats like a malignant growth in the body politic. Their actions effect us all indirectly. The sense of injustice engendered by the treatment of the Palestinians helped motivate the perpetrators of 9-11 and the London bombings.
The race, or religion, of victims and aggressors is of no concern to me. A crime against humanity is a crime whoever commits it.
You asked what should happen to the Israelis and then put words into my mouth to answer your own question. I will answer you now. They could go back to where they came from.
Sandy –
Your quote, “... you're implying that I'm an anti-Semite. That's not the case.”
Actually, I wasn't implying any such thing. If anything, I was implying that the situation in this region is far more complicated than most people and political commentators care to acknowledge. You say you're not anti-semitic and I believe you. I'm actually quite fed up with people who claim that someone's anti-this or anti-that purely because they're discussing a scenario that involves religion. However, I think that you seem to either misunderstand or simply ignore the reality of the situation.
It's no good wringing your hands and saying that the Israelis should give up their lands to the Palestinians. I'm sorry if you find my answers offensive but I don't think you've thought this through at all. Your last sentence, “... They [the Israelis] could go back to where they came from.” is a case in point.
Where do you proposed to put over 7 million people?
More to the point, why should they move at all? I've listed above a brief synopsis of cultures and peoples who have controlled this disputed region from as far back as 550 BC. So why do you think that the Palestinians have a greater claim to these lands than current occupants?
Your quote, “... you're implying that I'm an anti-Semite. That's not the case.”
Actually, I wasn't implying any such thing. If anything, I was implying that the situation in this region is far more complicated than most people and political commentators care to acknowledge. You say you're not anti-semitic and I believe you. I'm actually quite fed up with people who claim that someone's anti-this or anti-that purely because they're discussing a scenario that involves religion. However, I think that you seem to either misunderstand or simply ignore the reality of the situation.
It's no good wringing your hands and saying that the Israelis should give up their lands to the Palestinians. I'm sorry if you find my answers offensive but I don't think you've thought this through at all. Your last sentence, “... They [the Israelis] could go back to where they came from.” is a case in point.
Where do you proposed to put over 7 million people?
More to the point, why should they move at all? I've listed above a brief synopsis of cultures and peoples who have controlled this disputed region from as far back as 550 BC. So why do you think that the Palestinians have a greater claim to these lands than current occupants?
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