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Nazis or Germans
Have you noticed when the media talk about the war you would think we were never at war with the Germans only the Nazis. Whenever any violence is mentioned be it their treatment of the Jews, massacres, mass bombing, brutality etc . It is always the Nazis who did it , just as if the German Nation somehow were not involved.
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Quite tara ...and I get sick to death of people who keep dragging this up .
123everton seems to have an unhealthy obsession with all things German and as I have said to him before I wish my dear old pa in law was still alive and could sit down with him and explain to him exactly how your normal German citizen felt about the war .Considering his own father was blown to bits in the first lot and he never knew him he was a very peaceful man who hated what happened .But he had no choice .
War is a sad state of affairs in any generation but if you cannot see the bigger picture and just have one sided ideals then no wonder some carry on condoning war and all the hate and destruction it brings with it . .
Ok you may be right about the Wehrmacht in some circumstances, but don't forget there were an awful lot who didn't agree ,namely Rommel ,Stauffenberg ,Canaris etc . You can't tar them all with the same brush .
These people were career soldiers,who abhorred Hitler and his regime .Last word from me .. I can see and have heard both sides .My in laws lived through the war in Germany and believe me,your ordinary man on the street was not a Nazi .
123everton seems to have an unhealthy obsession with all things German and as I have said to him before I wish my dear old pa in law was still alive and could sit down with him and explain to him exactly how your normal German citizen felt about the war .Considering his own father was blown to bits in the first lot and he never knew him he was a very peaceful man who hated what happened .But he had no choice .
War is a sad state of affairs in any generation but if you cannot see the bigger picture and just have one sided ideals then no wonder some carry on condoning war and all the hate and destruction it brings with it . .
Ok you may be right about the Wehrmacht in some circumstances, but don't forget there were an awful lot who didn't agree ,namely Rommel ,Stauffenberg ,Canaris etc . You can't tar them all with the same brush .
These people were career soldiers,who abhorred Hitler and his regime .Last word from me .. I can see and have heard both sides .My in laws lived through the war in Germany and believe me,your ordinary man on the street was not a Nazi .
Shaney a lot of what you said is true, I am not however biased or blinded.
Doenitz should not have been tried let alone convicted of war crimes, Stauffenberg was a rabid anti-semite (take no notice of the film), Rommel was loyal to Hitler it was only when the war was clearly being lost and Hitler's orders were exacerbating these losses that Rommel started to voice concerns, Canaris was indeed opposed to Hitler and integral in keeping Spain out of the war thus protecting Gibraltar.
Suggested reading, "The Nazi Officer's Wife" by Edith Hahn Beer and "The Good German Of Nanking" by John Rabe.
I sometimes wonder if the people of Britain today find themselves twixt in the same dilemma as the Germans of the third Reich.
Doenitz should not have been tried let alone convicted of war crimes, Stauffenberg was a rabid anti-semite (take no notice of the film), Rommel was loyal to Hitler it was only when the war was clearly being lost and Hitler's orders were exacerbating these losses that Rommel started to voice concerns, Canaris was indeed opposed to Hitler and integral in keeping Spain out of the war thus protecting Gibraltar.
Suggested reading, "The Nazi Officer's Wife" by Edith Hahn Beer and "The Good German Of Nanking" by John Rabe.
I sometimes wonder if the people of Britain today find themselves twixt in the same dilemma as the Germans of the third Reich.
123everton I have read The Nazi Officer's Wife. Brilliant book .I 've read an awful lot of books about the war from both sides ...well you would wouldn't you ,being married to a German :)
All I can say is ..it was many years ago now and time marches on .
The situation today is completely different . Hitler wanted a new world order, thank goodness he never achieved that aim .
As for what goes on today ..I am anti war ..live and let live .I really cannot condone what is happening in our new Vietnam .
My Dad served in the MN during the war ,my pa in law in the Wehrmacht. Because they had to .
I daresay if they had ever got together (my dad died shortly before I married ) they would have got on famously .
They were both tolerant men .Some of our warmongers in parliament could take a leaf out of their books .
All I can say is ..it was many years ago now and time marches on .
The situation today is completely different . Hitler wanted a new world order, thank goodness he never achieved that aim .
As for what goes on today ..I am anti war ..live and let live .I really cannot condone what is happening in our new Vietnam .
My Dad served in the MN during the war ,my pa in law in the Wehrmacht. Because they had to .
I daresay if they had ever got together (my dad died shortly before I married ) they would have got on famously .
They were both tolerant men .Some of our warmongers in parliament could take a leaf out of their books .
If I was certain every post on this thread was intended to bring historical teminology into focus and not at all to further a view of present day people, then I would feel fine about it. Unfortunately, I sense the odour of prejudice. The Rev was correct to caution against abandon in that direction because most nations have things in their past that do not induce pride. In the past the British committed atrocities at home and abroad (Scottish clearances, deportations to Australia as late as 50 years ago, butchery in Africa and Asia, etc.), all based on a notion of supremacy and superiority, which those who so enthusiastically harp on about "the Germans" do not mention anything as easily or as frequently. Modern day Germans are well aware of the atrocities their predecessors (some, not all) committed and find them appalling. True, there are those in Germany (and Austria) who voice approval of at least some of the authoritarian methods used, but they are a minority just like those are a minority in Britain who support the BNP and other movements that wish to prescribe limits to rights and freedoms based on who you are. The notion of preservation of a culture (in itself no bad thing) is paraded as the motive, just as the Nazis held up pride in an ethnically based nationality - they crossed the line and the rest need to be kept behind it lest something awful happens again. It is up to all of us (on all sides of the various borders) to put a stop to the cycle of suspicion, animosity and outright antagonism by denying support for those, in the media and elsewhere, who would manipulate us into bickering gangs - whatever the pretext or motive.
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To clarify my answer of ages ago, I am not saying that because we did something then it is ok. If you read this into my response then I suggest you are reading something that isn't there.
I was pointing out that before you get all self righteous about the evil Germans remember that the British have historically been just as bad. Just one example, the concentration camp was a British invention.
Would you say it was the entire British population responsible for the invasion of Iraq, or a select few in and around the government.
I don't think the media are 100% accurate but in general most of the atrocities comitted by the germans in WWII were brought about by a relatively small number of nazi party members.
I was pointing out that before you get all self righteous about the evil Germans remember that the British have historically been just as bad. Just one example, the concentration camp was a British invention.
Would you say it was the entire British population responsible for the invasion of Iraq, or a select few in and around the government.
I don't think the media are 100% accurate but in general most of the atrocities comitted by the germans in WWII were brought about by a relatively small number of nazi party members.
No, I'd say Saddam Hussein was repsonsible for the invasion of Iraq; If he hadnt attempted to seize Kuwait none of this wouldve happened. Fact is the coalition force didnt go far enough the 1st time- hence the second go at it.
Yes, the British invented concentration camps as a means of containing large amounts of people in a relatively small area, we didnt gas our inmates though.
Its also worth mentioning most inmates in concentration camps in Germany in WW2 died of malnutrition due to the bombing of supply lines by the allies. In that scenario the troops/guards will get whatever food comes through but the inmates will starve.
Yes, the British invented concentration camps as a means of containing large amounts of people in a relatively small area, we didnt gas our inmates though.
Its also worth mentioning most inmates in concentration camps in Germany in WW2 died of malnutrition due to the bombing of supply lines by the allies. In that scenario the troops/guards will get whatever food comes through but the inmates will starve.
About the concentration camp, its use in the Boer war was not exactly a glorious chapter in history, gas or no gas. There is no such thing as a good atrocity, but large or small they should teach all of us a good lesson in what to watch out for and do our level best to discourage and prevent. If we learn then we can hope to be better.
A lot to go through here, firstly if you read Wordsworth you'll see that the land clearances affected England and Wales just as badly, these acts were the acts of bad, dictatorial corrupt governments.
There is some dispute as to the British invention of concentration camps and it is suggested by some (myself included) that concentration camps were devised during the Spanish American war of 1899 that served to keep the U.S out of the second Anglo Boer War as an ally of the Boers.
The second point about the camps is that they were not designed to kill the inhabitants, the camps were sited and designed to facilitate defence as the General Roberts (the instigator) thought the Boers would attempt to liberate their families, they didn't, furthermore the Boers didn't want the families to join them on commando as they reduced their mobility.
You have to remember that during the second Anglo Boer War the British lost about 31000 men over 18000 were due to disease, there were also issues with what was called the welt Boers (won't go into it just now), ultimately it was a failure by the British for which the British must bear responsibility.
There is some dispute as to the British invention of concentration camps and it is suggested by some (myself included) that concentration camps were devised during the Spanish American war of 1899 that served to keep the U.S out of the second Anglo Boer War as an ally of the Boers.
The second point about the camps is that they were not designed to kill the inhabitants, the camps were sited and designed to facilitate defence as the General Roberts (the instigator) thought the Boers would attempt to liberate their families, they didn't, furthermore the Boers didn't want the families to join them on commando as they reduced their mobility.
You have to remember that during the second Anglo Boer War the British lost about 31000 men over 18000 were due to disease, there were also issues with what was called the welt Boers (won't go into it just now), ultimately it was a failure by the British for which the British must bear responsibility.
Snafu, sorry, but you're answer pays homage to a rather cursory look at history, Saddam Hussein's invasion of Kuwait had amongst other reasons as a casus belli, a territorial claim, namely that Kuwait was sovreign Iraqi land cleaved out of it by, guess who?
The British, it is one of life's strategic and military curiousities to me that an enemy army sits in Kuwait so we bomb Baghdad, that's another story.
The camps built by the British were to house the families of the Boers to deny the commandos of succour and sustenance, this came about as the previous pledge system for captured commandos and other families was (unsurprisingly) an unmitigated disaster strategically.
The camps built by the Germans/Nazis were designed to kill, the whole ethos of the camp was to bring about an early death, from the drainage to the overcrowding, from the diet to the overworking.
Starvation was an integral part of German strategy for subjugated people, for a quick reference see Poland, Russia and Ukraine.
The British, it is one of life's strategic and military curiousities to me that an enemy army sits in Kuwait so we bomb Baghdad, that's another story.
The camps built by the British were to house the families of the Boers to deny the commandos of succour and sustenance, this came about as the previous pledge system for captured commandos and other families was (unsurprisingly) an unmitigated disaster strategically.
The camps built by the Germans/Nazis were designed to kill, the whole ethos of the camp was to bring about an early death, from the drainage to the overcrowding, from the diet to the overworking.
Starvation was an integral part of German strategy for subjugated people, for a quick reference see Poland, Russia and Ukraine.
/// How much longer do the Germans have to keep on saying "Sorry"? ///
Good question, one could also ask "how much longer do the British have to say sorry for slavery"?
While pondering over this, it got me thinking, if Nazis/Fascism hadf not existed what would some be accused of being if they dared to be right wing?
Also if slavery had not existed, would the blacks be still able to accuse whites of various misdemeanours against them?
Good question, one could also ask "how much longer do the British have to say sorry for slavery"?
While pondering over this, it got me thinking, if Nazis/Fascism hadf not existed what would some be accused of being if they dared to be right wing?
Also if slavery had not existed, would the blacks be still able to accuse whites of various misdemeanours against them?
/// How much longer do the Germans have to keep on saying "Sorry"? ///
///Good question, one could also ask "how much longer do the British have to say sorry for slavery"? ///
In my opinion someone who has perpetrated these crimes can never apologise enough but we shouldn't have to apologise for the sins of our fathers be we British, German, black or white.
///Good question, one could also ask "how much longer do the British have to say sorry for slavery"? ///
In my opinion someone who has perpetrated these crimes can never apologise enough but we shouldn't have to apologise for the sins of our fathers be we British, German, black or white.
I rarely get involved in these arguments, but I saw a programme on the one of the history channels. I missed the start. It featured all the old stuff about people being put into cattle wagons and sent east the Germany to provide slave labour etc., After 5 minutes, it became obvious that these events were from WW1 and not WW2. Thousands of Belgiums were taken. Most Belgium towns have memorials to the civillians that were taken in this way. This was not 'Nazis", this was Germans
I recommend a dvd called Sophie Scholl. Great German film based on the true story of a bunch of university kids in Germany during WW2 who wanted to convince the authorities to make peace with the allies. They were hunted down like dogs and executed by kangaroo courts. It's subtitled but gives you an idea of things.
Not all Germans were Nazis. Once a ball like that starts rolling people learn to put up and shut up. Oswald Moseley was one of many aristocrats who were Nazis (i.e. Edward and Mrs. Simpson), however, he was the only one punished for it. Funnily enough Moseleys mother was Jewish as well.
Not all Germans were Nazis. Once a ball like that starts rolling people learn to put up and shut up. Oswald Moseley was one of many aristocrats who were Nazis (i.e. Edward and Mrs. Simpson), however, he was the only one punished for it. Funnily enough Moseleys mother was Jewish as well.
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