ChatterBank4 mins ago
Evidence for God?
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In two other threads on this site mallymooface has claimed that there is evidence for God, on one occasion even saying "there is plenty of physical evidence for God".
She also asks whether I can produce proof that God doesn't exist. Taking them in order:
The first one is easy from my end: what evidence do you have, mallymooface, for God's existence? I don't mean faith or personal conviction; I mean evidence - your word.
As to the second (that old chestnut) the fact that one cannot prove the non-existence of unnatural things that people have mooted does not support the truth of them.
I am sure that I cannot disprove the existence of unicorns, magic carpets, Elwood P Dowd's invisible white rabbit called 'Harvey' or shoe-mending elves, but does that inability of mine add to their credibility? If so, then anyone can invent any crazy thing and then sit back smugly and say "You disprove it!"
It is for those who claim incredible things to prove them, or at least provide evidence that the rest of us can chase up.
She also asks whether I can produce proof that God doesn't exist. Taking them in order:
The first one is easy from my end: what evidence do you have, mallymooface, for God's existence? I don't mean faith or personal conviction; I mean evidence - your word.
As to the second (that old chestnut) the fact that one cannot prove the non-existence of unnatural things that people have mooted does not support the truth of them.
I am sure that I cannot disprove the existence of unicorns, magic carpets, Elwood P Dowd's invisible white rabbit called 'Harvey' or shoe-mending elves, but does that inability of mine add to their credibility? If so, then anyone can invent any crazy thing and then sit back smugly and say "You disprove it!"
It is for those who claim incredible things to prove them, or at least provide evidence that the rest of us can chase up.
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(continued)
Look at Jerusalem. The Bible calls it, "a burdensome stone, a cup of trembling," and it is. It is hardly ever out of the news, as the nations try to decide how to bring peace to the area.
But Jerusalem has no natural resources, is not at any great crossroads, has no strategic value, and these words were written thousands of years ago. If the writers wanted to impress, they might have said Rome, or Alexandria, but no, this unimpressive little city was forecast to be the focus of world attention, and it is.
That's all for now. I'll try to get back to you later to address other points.
I'm trying to resist the temptation to post links to prophecy sites, that is too easy, but you will know that my views are held by many, and they really do have higher intellects than chimpanzees.
Look at Jerusalem. The Bible calls it, "a burdensome stone, a cup of trembling," and it is. It is hardly ever out of the news, as the nations try to decide how to bring peace to the area.
But Jerusalem has no natural resources, is not at any great crossroads, has no strategic value, and these words were written thousands of years ago. If the writers wanted to impress, they might have said Rome, or Alexandria, but no, this unimpressive little city was forecast to be the focus of world attention, and it is.
That's all for now. I'll try to get back to you later to address other points.
I'm trying to resist the temptation to post links to prophecy sites, that is too easy, but you will know that my views are held by many, and they really do have higher intellects than chimpanzees.
"The survival of the Jewish nation in Israel is rightly described as miraculous"
Please detail any aspects of the survival of Israel after independance that require supernatural intervention.
"West Point military academy in the U.S. do not use Israeli victories and tactics as models for training"
and
"any objective military expert would say that Israel should have lost, and describe their victories and survival as, "miraculous."
Unsubstantiated and again, supernatural interventions not detailed.
"God promised the Jews a land of milk and honey, and just look at Israel today! Hardly any natural resources"
Indeed, and one of the major reasons for Israeli military incursions into Palestine is because God forgot to provide them with enough water, and they've overpumped their own wells. One might think a genuine miracle might be to rectify such a situation by simply providing enough water in the wells without the need for loss of life on either side.
"but a booming economy"
If this is the case, why is Israel's trade deficit propped up by large foriegn loans and transfer payments from other countries (principally the US)?
Please detail any aspects of the survival of Israel after independance that require supernatural intervention.
"West Point military academy in the U.S. do not use Israeli victories and tactics as models for training"
and
"any objective military expert would say that Israel should have lost, and describe their victories and survival as, "miraculous."
Unsubstantiated and again, supernatural interventions not detailed.
"God promised the Jews a land of milk and honey, and just look at Israel today! Hardly any natural resources"
Indeed, and one of the major reasons for Israeli military incursions into Palestine is because God forgot to provide them with enough water, and they've overpumped their own wells. One might think a genuine miracle might be to rectify such a situation by simply providing enough water in the wells without the need for loss of life on either side.
"but a booming economy"
If this is the case, why is Israel's trade deficit propped up by large foriegn loans and transfer payments from other countries (principally the US)?
"just compare the number of Nobel prizes won by Jews with a small population compared to the handful won by the millions of surrounding Arab countries. Is God blessing them or what?"
If you actually do even a cursory examination of the relationship between Nobel prizes (and I will accept without reservation if you write that hand on heart before Jesus Christ that you have personally examined said relationship and are not just parroting something you've read somewhere that it is the truth) you will know why this is a silly comparison to make.
If the winning of Nobels has anyting to do with God's blessings, how come the Nobels per head of population show that the countries with a higher percentage of atheists win more than the religious ones?
Country Nobels per Pop
Switzerland 303,656
Sweden 327,962
Denmark 421,215
Norway 431,664
Ireland 433,900
Austria 438,300
UK 531,468
Hungary 773,308
Germany 830,404
Israel 906,813
The Netherlands 911,594
Belgium 962,230
USA 998,834
France 1,193,947
New Zealand 1,420,167
I don't think that 'countries with a higher percentage of atheists' is a meaningful correlation either, and it's far more likely to be a reflection of the general culture of a country. Also I think it's unreasonable to suggest that the Nobel winning Israeli scientists should have the credit for their achievements given to God, who I'm betting didn't turn up at the lab once.
This isn't to denigrate Israel or Israelis in the slightest. It's to say that your fetishisation of the country blinds you to reality.
If you actually do even a cursory examination of the relationship between Nobel prizes (and I will accept without reservation if you write that hand on heart before Jesus Christ that you have personally examined said relationship and are not just parroting something you've read somewhere that it is the truth) you will know why this is a silly comparison to make.
If the winning of Nobels has anyting to do with God's blessings, how come the Nobels per head of population show that the countries with a higher percentage of atheists win more than the religious ones?
Country Nobels per Pop
Switzerland 303,656
Sweden 327,962
Denmark 421,215
Norway 431,664
Ireland 433,900
Austria 438,300
UK 531,468
Hungary 773,308
Germany 830,404
Israel 906,813
The Netherlands 911,594
Belgium 962,230
USA 998,834
France 1,193,947
New Zealand 1,420,167
I don't think that 'countries with a higher percentage of atheists' is a meaningful correlation either, and it's far more likely to be a reflection of the general culture of a country. Also I think it's unreasonable to suggest that the Nobel winning Israeli scientists should have the credit for their achievements given to God, who I'm betting didn't turn up at the lab once.
This isn't to denigrate Israel or Israelis in the slightest. It's to say that your fetishisation of the country blinds you to reality.
Just to address one of your points Waldo, the 1948 war saw Israel outmanned and outgunned and the predominant view was that the country was going to be strangled at birth, and it is rightly described as miraculous that it wasn't, no thanks to the shameful British mandate before independence, which was biased in favour of the Arabs.
Yes, they needed a miracle, and they got one.
The United Nations vote in 1947 was indeed a miracle in itself.
Yes, they needed a miracle, and they got one.
The United Nations vote in 1947 was indeed a miracle in itself.
Sorry, still not seeing any miracles. Where's the supernatural intervention in the UN vote (clearly a compromise agreement in the aftermath of successive failures by the British to implement the Balfour Plan)?
As for your claims that the Israelis were out manned and outgunned, that's quite an interesting and novel take on the fact that some sources (including the Israeli historian Benny Morris) suggest that there were in the region of 12,000 more Israelis than Arabs at the outbreak of the war and that the Arabs generally had substandard and numerically inferior weapons and equipment...
Again, where's the supernatural intervention contravening the known laws of physics (aka Miracle)? You say it's there, but don't characterise it.
As for your claims that the Israelis were out manned and outgunned, that's quite an interesting and novel take on the fact that some sources (including the Israeli historian Benny Morris) suggest that there were in the region of 12,000 more Israelis than Arabs at the outbreak of the war and that the Arabs generally had substandard and numerically inferior weapons and equipment...
Again, where's the supernatural intervention contravening the known laws of physics (aka Miracle)? You say it's there, but don't characterise it.
How could the Israelis have had superior weaponry, when they had been subjected to an import embargo by the Mandate, that still allowed arms to get through to the Arabs?
Britains loyalty was with the Arabs, think of oil, nothing changes.
The Arab countries would not have considered attacking the fledgling country if they were not certain of their numerical and materiel advantage.
The miraculous is found through human agency, not thunderbolts from the sky, but I believe that the outcome was ordained, whatever the means.
Similarly, the United Nations vote in 1947 was remarkable. Look at Russia, anti Semitic, responsible for numerous pogroms, but voted for Israeli independence. Again, regardless of the politics by human agency, the outcome was ordained.
Regarding Benny Morris, that is interesting, but before I 'google' him, I suspect that his opinions go against the general consensus of historians who are also expert on this fascinating subject.
Britains loyalty was with the Arabs, think of oil, nothing changes.
The Arab countries would not have considered attacking the fledgling country if they were not certain of their numerical and materiel advantage.
The miraculous is found through human agency, not thunderbolts from the sky, but I believe that the outcome was ordained, whatever the means.
Similarly, the United Nations vote in 1947 was remarkable. Look at Russia, anti Semitic, responsible for numerous pogroms, but voted for Israeli independence. Again, regardless of the politics by human agency, the outcome was ordained.
Regarding Benny Morris, that is interesting, but before I 'google' him, I suspect that his opinions go against the general consensus of historians who are also expert on this fascinating subject.
Yes, chakka, the thread is entering OJ land.
It'll steer back on track, these god threads always run into the hundreds.
At the moment we're stuck in the 'Because something is unlikely it does not mean it is miraculous' rut.
It is my opinion that differences between believers and non-believers does not rest on interpretation of any evidence, by and large. Believers approach the evidence with their mind made up that there is a god, and seek 'evidence' (aka distortions) to support it. Non-believers for the most part are prepared to entertain both ideas by and large, but the evidence they see just does not point that way. That's why there are so few conversions either way as a result of such debates. But they're fun though!
That said, it's a miracle (to me :-) ) that I ever left my once pretty strong commitment to the christian faith. I guess I reached a point where I was prepared to entertain an alternative viewpoint, then when you start looking at the evidence, it opens the floodgates.
Christians: The view from the outside looking in is pretty horrible. Save yourselves!
It'll steer back on track, these god threads always run into the hundreds.
At the moment we're stuck in the 'Because something is unlikely it does not mean it is miraculous' rut.
It is my opinion that differences between believers and non-believers does not rest on interpretation of any evidence, by and large. Believers approach the evidence with their mind made up that there is a god, and seek 'evidence' (aka distortions) to support it. Non-believers for the most part are prepared to entertain both ideas by and large, but the evidence they see just does not point that way. That's why there are so few conversions either way as a result of such debates. But they're fun though!
That said, it's a miracle (to me :-) ) that I ever left my once pretty strong commitment to the christian faith. I guess I reached a point where I was prepared to entertain an alternative viewpoint, then when you start looking at the evidence, it opens the floodgates.
Christians: The view from the outside looking in is pretty horrible. Save yourselves!
Theland, are you referring to the UN arms embargo of June 1948, well into the conflict, and which hampered the efforts of both sides to get arms, or to a previous one?
Declassified CIA documents show both sides prior to the war were suffering from a lack of arms and equipment, not just one side.
Considering that both sides had known for months and months that there was a conflict coming, and had been doing their best to arm themselves, the embargo is hardly evidence of a massively one-sided conflict that required a miracle to win.
Incidentally, you seem to be using some rather grey definition of 'miracle' that makes it impossible to detect the presence of a supernatural creator and might as well be termed the 'cause I say so' proof of God's interaction with the physical world i.e is entirely indistinguishable in all ways from what we would expect to see if no such being were involved.
Declassified CIA documents show both sides prior to the war were suffering from a lack of arms and equipment, not just one side.
Considering that both sides had known for months and months that there was a conflict coming, and had been doing their best to arm themselves, the embargo is hardly evidence of a massively one-sided conflict that required a miracle to win.
Incidentally, you seem to be using some rather grey definition of 'miracle' that makes it impossible to detect the presence of a supernatural creator and might as well be termed the 'cause I say so' proof of God's interaction with the physical world i.e is entirely indistinguishable in all ways from what we would expect to see if no such being were involved.
Waldo - Regarding the amount of arms both sides had, the fact remains that the Jews under the Mandate were prevented from arming themselves sufficiently to thwart an attack. Secret undergound arms factories were set up, and under the noses of the British authorities, and on pain of death by hanging, the Jews managed to arm themselves to some extent. Would this have been necessary if they were allowed to freely import arms?
No such restrictions prevened the five nations that attacked them from getting arms.
Gods' intervention cannot in this case be verified by objective evidence, as far as I know, although individual testimonies from Israeli troops sometimes tell a different story.
No such restrictions prevened the five nations that attacked them from getting arms.
Gods' intervention cannot in this case be verified by objective evidence, as far as I know, although individual testimonies from Israeli troops sometimes tell a different story.
And in the interests of not being completely biased, what was the effect of the embargo on the other side? Were they stomping around, causing the ground to shake with every fall of their mighty limbs, covered in bling, showing off their enormous penis-subsitute weaponry..?
Or is the truth that they too were not actually well armed either..? Could the truth possibly be a little more prosaic..? More, dare we say it, balanced?
Or is the truth that they too were not actually well armed either..? Could the truth possibly be a little more prosaic..? More, dare we say it, balanced?
Looking at the hardware at the disposal of the Israelis, it consisted of light weapons only. Compare that to the heavier arms, mechanised, planes etc, available to the Arabs. Halfway down the page link.
So, no not balanced at all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli _War#Yishuv_forces
So, no not balanced at all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli _War#Yishuv_forces
Theland reiterated his oft stated claims that Biblical prophesy is worth the toilet paper it's printed on and then went off to claim a load of unsubstantiated guff about miracles.
Theland, your blinkers are working perfectly I see. Expressions such as "the equipment of the Palestinian forces was very poor" and "all observers�Jewish, British, Palestinian Arab, and external Arab�agreed on the eve of the war that the Palestinians were incapable of beating the Zionists or of withstanding Zionist assault. The Palestinians were simply too weak." do not even impact on your visor (to pick just two).
What about the effect of the British forces? Do they get brushed under the carpet lest they make the sides look a bit more fair? Does the decrepitude of substantial amounts of the Arab equipment have no bearing? What about their capacity to get ammunition? What about sheer complacany? What about the military capabilities and experience of the Israeli forces? What about the vehicles the Israelis were able to convert for miliary use?
The Israelis, in your eyes, can only be a David defeating a mighty Goliath because that suits your worldview. "It must be so, it must be so."
The reality is rather more subtle and complicated than such a simple black and white, good and bad picture.
Theland, your blinkers are working perfectly I see. Expressions such as "the equipment of the Palestinian forces was very poor" and "all observers�Jewish, British, Palestinian Arab, and external Arab�agreed on the eve of the war that the Palestinians were incapable of beating the Zionists or of withstanding Zionist assault. The Palestinians were simply too weak." do not even impact on your visor (to pick just two).
What about the effect of the British forces? Do they get brushed under the carpet lest they make the sides look a bit more fair? Does the decrepitude of substantial amounts of the Arab equipment have no bearing? What about their capacity to get ammunition? What about sheer complacany? What about the military capabilities and experience of the Israeli forces? What about the vehicles the Israelis were able to convert for miliary use?
The Israelis, in your eyes, can only be a David defeating a mighty Goliath because that suits your worldview. "It must be so, it must be so."
The reality is rather more subtle and complicated than such a simple black and white, good and bad picture.
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