Octopus Energy - Worth A Punt?
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Support For Israel
Should our government do more to support the state of Israel?
I believe they should
I believe they should
Answers
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OK, what's pretty clear here is that you believe Israel should have more UK government support, and that most people have been screwed over with the Palestine thing, and plenty of people disagree, including me, because we're saying you shouldn't take land simply because it isn't a state. The debate won't really be resolved, because neither side is convincing each other to stop. Just like the real conflict.
Yay.
Now we can all live in peace, harmony and total disagreement.
Yay.
Now we can all live in peace, harmony and total disagreement.
jno - The Lebanon war started as you say with the kidnap of two soldiers. Israel sent an armoured patrol after them, straight into a pre-planned ambush, (mines). What were they to do next? Allow even more border troops to be attacked. The Israeli Air Force attacked a Hizbollah target and the Katyushas started raining down on northern Israel. It was all preplanned by Hizbollah, according to their leader Nasrallah, who didn't expect such a robust response. So now it was the IAF responding to Katyushas, designed and fired to kill civilians.
Remember, Israel are fighting our war, as these Jihadists have declared war on the West, (9/11, 7/7, Madrid train bomb, Bali bomb), targeting western tourists wherever they can. Embedding their rockets and fighters amongst their own civilians to try and deter reprisals is just another cold blooded tactic of these terrorists. Their own people are pawns.
Remember, Israel are fighting our war, as these Jihadists have declared war on the West, (9/11, 7/7, Madrid train bomb, Bali bomb), targeting western tourists wherever they can. Embedding their rockets and fighters amongst their own civilians to try and deter reprisals is just another cold blooded tactic of these terrorists. Their own people are pawns.
Ctrak - Thanks for sticking with this.
One point, the Israelis did not take land. From the late nineteenth century they bought it. By independence, they had about 18% of the land called Palestine, which includes the West Bank and Gaza. This land had been bought whilst under Ottoman sovereignty, later transferred to British sovereignty. As the Jews became the majority on this small piece of land, they aspired to a homeland of their own for all Jews, as without their own land, they were not safe, as the Russian pogroms and Nazi persecutions show.
One point, the Israelis did not take land. From the late nineteenth century they bought it. By independence, they had about 18% of the land called Palestine, which includes the West Bank and Gaza. This land had been bought whilst under Ottoman sovereignty, later transferred to British sovereignty. As the Jews became the majority on this small piece of land, they aspired to a homeland of their own for all Jews, as without their own land, they were not safe, as the Russian pogroms and Nazi persecutions show.
Theland, I am somewhat curious as to the source of your sympathies here.
Are you an independent, objective supporter of the "underdog"? Or are your sympathies derived from the fact that you are an evangelical christian with a dislike of the muslim faith?
If the situation was exactly reversed, and it was muslims who had formed the state of Israel, and there actions mirrored exactly that of Israel to date, where would your sympathies lie then?
Are you an independent, objective supporter of the "underdog"? Or are your sympathies derived from the fact that you are an evangelical christian with a dislike of the muslim faith?
If the situation was exactly reversed, and it was muslims who had formed the state of Israel, and there actions mirrored exactly that of Israel to date, where would your sympathies lie then?
LazyGun - I do not claim to know much about the internal politics of that tragic period a few years ago, when Serbia, Croatia, and Bosnia Herzogovenia were all embroiled in war and ethnic cleansing.
How sad it was to see whole muslim communities wiped out by the Serbs, simply because they were muslims. Men women and children massacred, thrown into unmarked graves. Those that escaped were homeless refugees, having lost everything.
I supported the military efforts to bring stability to this area, and the hunting down of the war criminals who perpetrated these infamies.
Therefore, I would like to think that I am an objective observer giving my opinion on the facts as I see them.
The trouble is getting to the facts. The B.B.C. are so bigoted against Israel, as are many reporters on Sky, that it takes my breath away.
As to your last point, if it was muslims that had set up the state of Israel under the same circumstances, then I believe I would be objective enough to recognise injustice, wherever it appeared, and by whoever it was perpetrated.
How sad it was to see whole muslim communities wiped out by the Serbs, simply because they were muslims. Men women and children massacred, thrown into unmarked graves. Those that escaped were homeless refugees, having lost everything.
I supported the military efforts to bring stability to this area, and the hunting down of the war criminals who perpetrated these infamies.
Therefore, I would like to think that I am an objective observer giving my opinion on the facts as I see them.
The trouble is getting to the facts. The B.B.C. are so bigoted against Israel, as are many reporters on Sky, that it takes my breath away.
As to your last point, if it was muslims that had set up the state of Israel under the same circumstances, then I believe I would be objective enough to recognise injustice, wherever it appeared, and by whoever it was perpetrated.
Theland, I would dispute your assertion of "breathtaking bias" on behalf of the BBC ( cannot comment about Sky, since I dont watch it.)
Personally, based upon my own experiences of the region, Israel certainly doesn't need any more support from us.
A greater willingness to open dialogue to find a genuinely fair solution by Israel would be welcomed.The only time in recent history that they came close to doing that, the PM responsible, Rabin, was assassinated by a fundie with a gun.
A willingness to show restraint in the face of provocation would garner much more international sympathy... instead they use overwhelming and often misdirected force, killing women and children, and serving only to create more martyrs for the opposition. Their recent incursion into Lebanon and the gratuitious use of cluster bombs have ensured that the livelihood of those Lebanese living near the border is disrupted, unless they are willing to risk getting a limb blown off or worse in order to collect the olives.
A willingness to circumscribe the fanatical jewish settlers who defiantly proclaim land ceded to the palestinians as theirs would be welcomed.
Thats not to say that the fault is all theirs, of course... Hamas and Hezbollah carry their own fair share of blood on their hands.... but Israel as a state needs to be much more open to finding a just and equitable solution to the problem than they have shown to date.
Personally, based upon my own experiences of the region, Israel certainly doesn't need any more support from us.
A greater willingness to open dialogue to find a genuinely fair solution by Israel would be welcomed.The only time in recent history that they came close to doing that, the PM responsible, Rabin, was assassinated by a fundie with a gun.
A willingness to show restraint in the face of provocation would garner much more international sympathy... instead they use overwhelming and often misdirected force, killing women and children, and serving only to create more martyrs for the opposition. Their recent incursion into Lebanon and the gratuitious use of cluster bombs have ensured that the livelihood of those Lebanese living near the border is disrupted, unless they are willing to risk getting a limb blown off or worse in order to collect the olives.
A willingness to circumscribe the fanatical jewish settlers who defiantly proclaim land ceded to the palestinians as theirs would be welcomed.
Thats not to say that the fault is all theirs, of course... Hamas and Hezbollah carry their own fair share of blood on their hands.... but Israel as a state needs to be much more open to finding a just and equitable solution to the problem than they have shown to date.
LazyGun, you make a very interesting point: that Israel is still behaving as if it was an armed insurgency movement rather than a state. Maybe this comes out of centuries of oppression of Jews; maybe they still haven't quite come to terms with the fact that they are now a country, and that countries behave differently from Los Angeles street gangs shooting each other over turf disputes.
LazyGun - I stand by my assertion that Israel does not get fair treatment from the B.B.C. This is evidenced by the fact that they seem to concentrate more on Israeli reactions to terrorism, and less to the terrorism itself.
The area is a powder keg, and as such, any infringement of the peace should be reported, and leaders held to account. But the B.B.C. did not give adequate coverage of Kassam rocket attacks into Southern Israel, which began only days after the pull out from Gaza.
Israel has shown a willingness to engage in dialogue, but the lack of a unity government under Mahmoud Abbas has meant there was nobody to talk to.
Syria has recently made overtures for talks, but has demanded the return of the Golan Heights. Now, Catch 22 - The Golan belongs to Lebanon, but Syria has laid claim. But Israel needs the Golan while there is a hostile Syria. But this is a recent development, and needs to be watched carefully. If Israel refuses talks with preconditions, she is obdurate, but entering such talks whilst agreeing to the preconditions could be folly. (continued)
The area is a powder keg, and as such, any infringement of the peace should be reported, and leaders held to account. But the B.B.C. did not give adequate coverage of Kassam rocket attacks into Southern Israel, which began only days after the pull out from Gaza.
Israel has shown a willingness to engage in dialogue, but the lack of a unity government under Mahmoud Abbas has meant there was nobody to talk to.
Syria has recently made overtures for talks, but has demanded the return of the Golan Heights. Now, Catch 22 - The Golan belongs to Lebanon, but Syria has laid claim. But Israel needs the Golan while there is a hostile Syria. But this is a recent development, and needs to be watched carefully. If Israel refuses talks with preconditions, she is obdurate, but entering such talks whilst agreeing to the preconditions could be folly. (continued)
(continued)
Restraint is what Israel has shown in the face of extreme provocation. How many Kassam rockets were fired, and how many suicide bombers struck, before Israel took any retaliatory action? Israel has always been extremely patient in this respect, making tremendous efforts to prevent terrorism, rather than retaliate against it.
But you mention the Lebanon war and cluster bombs, and the deaths of civilians. Is it only in Israel that it is recognised that a well tried tactic of the Jihadists, is to embed themselves within the civilian population. Who is responsible for their deaths then? And what, in the face of the Katyusha launches, was Israel to do? Nasrallah does not bow to diplomacy. So what then?
Restraint is what Israel has shown in the face of extreme provocation. How many Kassam rockets were fired, and how many suicide bombers struck, before Israel took any retaliatory action? Israel has always been extremely patient in this respect, making tremendous efforts to prevent terrorism, rather than retaliate against it.
But you mention the Lebanon war and cluster bombs, and the deaths of civilians. Is it only in Israel that it is recognised that a well tried tactic of the Jihadists, is to embed themselves within the civilian population. Who is responsible for their deaths then? And what, in the face of the Katyusha launches, was Israel to do? Nasrallah does not bow to diplomacy. So what then?
Theland, I knew about the rocket attacks, and guess where I got the info from... the BBC no less. If you look for bias, you will inevitably find it.
Israel have always imposed stringent preconditions prior to any negotiation, knowing full well that they cannot be met. To excuse the cluster bombs fired in their thousands by the IDF whilst withdrawing, right up to the second of the cease fire ,on the grounds of terrorists "embedding " themselves is facile. Israel has a history of using disproportionate response over the last couple of decades.
Unless and until a settlement is made that palestinians and the rest of the moderate arab world view as equitable, the violence will continue, with disenfranchised palestinian / arab youth an easy market for radicalisation, and the tit for tat attacks will continue. For every rocket that arab fundamentalists fire that cause damage, injury and perhaps death to 4 or 5 Israelis, the Israeli response kills 4-500. That is disproportionate. Israel holds the key to this, and its about time they turned it.
Israel have always imposed stringent preconditions prior to any negotiation, knowing full well that they cannot be met. To excuse the cluster bombs fired in their thousands by the IDF whilst withdrawing, right up to the second of the cease fire ,on the grounds of terrorists "embedding " themselves is facile. Israel has a history of using disproportionate response over the last couple of decades.
Unless and until a settlement is made that palestinians and the rest of the moderate arab world view as equitable, the violence will continue, with disenfranchised palestinian / arab youth an easy market for radicalisation, and the tit for tat attacks will continue. For every rocket that arab fundamentalists fire that cause damage, injury and perhaps death to 4 or 5 Israelis, the Israeli response kills 4-500. That is disproportionate. Israel holds the key to this, and its about time they turned it.
LazyGun - I assure you I'm not looking for bias, and then finding it, I'm comparing the sheer number of incidents, only some of which get reported.
The town of Sderot, which was targeted by the Kassams so often that the people there threatened to go on strike because the Israeli government was ignoring them and doing nothing about it. That wasn't reported on the BBC and further illustrates the restraint shown at the time. The government satisfied themselves with making protests.
The only conditions that Israel has made prior to negotiations, is an end to violence, and integrity of its borders, and a demilitarised zone, on the West Bank. They are not unreasonable demands surely, when existence of the state itself is threatened?
The town of Sderot, which was targeted by the Kassams so often that the people there threatened to go on strike because the Israeli government was ignoring them and doing nothing about it. That wasn't reported on the BBC and further illustrates the restraint shown at the time. The government satisfied themselves with making protests.
The only conditions that Israel has made prior to negotiations, is an end to violence, and integrity of its borders, and a demilitarised zone, on the West Bank. They are not unreasonable demands surely, when existence of the state itself is threatened?
TheLand... I completely and wholly agree with your views. I am not a Jew, but i am an ardent supporter of the State of Israel. I really admire those guys!! But I kinda feel that the new generation is turning a bit soft. We need a new batch of the old type of 1948 or 1972 leaders. But as for your question.. Yes!! I do believe that the British Government should give a lot more political and economic support to Isarel. As rightly pointed out earlier, the influx of M's into this country is increasing on a daily basis, and it would not suprise me if some day in the near future we change the name of the country to Britianistan. Pathetic!! Lets have much better relations with Israel and make the world a safer and better place to live in!! Shalom!!
ChampagnMan & Admarlow - Thank you for your welcome comments. I don't have time to expand on your points right now but will try to do so tomorrow.
I would just like to say, however, that the debaters who have posted on this thread so far, and have disagreed with me, have nevertheless raised important issues that need to be carefully and respectfully addressed, and I appreciate your help in doing this, just as I appreciate their often passionate comments.
I note that Syria has offered peace talks, but still wants the Golan returned, (it's Lebanese!), whilst Israel HAS imposed conditions:- 1) Syria to cease arming Hizbollah, and 2) Curtail the activities of Khaled Mashaal, Hamas chief, residing in Damascus. Watch this space!
I would just like to say, however, that the debaters who have posted on this thread so far, and have disagreed with me, have nevertheless raised important issues that need to be carefully and respectfully addressed, and I appreciate your help in doing this, just as I appreciate their often passionate comments.
I note that Syria has offered peace talks, but still wants the Golan returned, (it's Lebanese!), whilst Israel HAS imposed conditions:- 1) Syria to cease arming Hizbollah, and 2) Curtail the activities of Khaled Mashaal, Hamas chief, residing in Damascus. Watch this space!
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