ChatterBank3 mins ago
Why Are Double Vaccinated Getting The Delta Variant?
If it is a change in the spike protein do we know how and what exactly has changed?
And the early claims from the mRNA manufacturers was they could 'tweak' the vaccine easily in a few weeks so is that happening?
Genetic sequencing has been going on aplenty and Britain is said to be a world leader in it, so we should have good data by now.
And the early claims from the mRNA manufacturers was they could 'tweak' the vaccine easily in a few weeks so is that happening?
Genetic sequencing has been going on aplenty and Britain is said to be a world leader in it, so we should have good data by now.
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SevenOP, you've asked a question where I have no choice but to simplify any explanation considerably but I'll give it a go.
The virion is made up of structural proteins called spike(S), envelope(E), membrane(M) and nucleocapsid(N) and one other sometimes present in betacoronaviruses, but I'll not discuss the latter here. The RNA genome is encapsulated by N. M and E work by making sure the genome is incorporated in the viral particle during assembly. The S function is complex, but can be regarded as there to provide precise cellular entry specifity.
The virion binds to cellular attachment factors via S interactions with cellular receptors such as angiotensin-converting enzyme 2 also known as ACE2 as well as cell surface proteases which result in increase the rate of viral uptake as well as allowing fusion with both the cellular or endosomal membranes. The RNA is released following cell entry and a protective coat is removed.
Here, I'll leave aside a few steps but suffice to say that two reading frames called ORF1A and ORF1B are translated to polyproteins pp1a and pp1b which in turn are processed into non-structural proteins that form the replication and transcription complex. From there vesicles are formed to create a protected area for viral genomic RNA replication and transcription. A nest of coronavirus mRNA's is formed and create structural proteins that move into endoplasmic reticulum membranes and move into a created compartment in the Golgi Body. Here, interactions with N encapsulated brand new genomic RNA results in budding into the inside of secretory vesicular compartments which results in virion production. These virions are released into the cell, exit the cell via membranes and go on to begin the cycle again.
Not to put to fine a point upon it, the above explanation may appear complex but it's as simple as I can make it this evening. Anyway, it should allow you to deduce which of the two possibilities in your 21.14 question is correct.
The virion is made up of structural proteins called spike(S), envelope(E), membrane(M) and nucleocapsid(N) and one other sometimes present in betacoronaviruses, but I'll not discuss the latter here. The RNA genome is encapsulated by N. M and E work by making sure the genome is incorporated in the viral particle during assembly. The S function is complex, but can be regarded as there to provide precise cellular entry specifity.
The virion binds to cellular attachment factors via S interactions with cellular receptors such as angiotensin-converting enzyme 2 also known as ACE2 as well as cell surface proteases which result in increase the rate of viral uptake as well as allowing fusion with both the cellular or endosomal membranes. The RNA is released following cell entry and a protective coat is removed.
Here, I'll leave aside a few steps but suffice to say that two reading frames called ORF1A and ORF1B are translated to polyproteins pp1a and pp1b which in turn are processed into non-structural proteins that form the replication and transcription complex. From there vesicles are formed to create a protected area for viral genomic RNA replication and transcription. A nest of coronavirus mRNA's is formed and create structural proteins that move into endoplasmic reticulum membranes and move into a created compartment in the Golgi Body. Here, interactions with N encapsulated brand new genomic RNA results in budding into the inside of secretory vesicular compartments which results in virion production. These virions are released into the cell, exit the cell via membranes and go on to begin the cycle again.
Not to put to fine a point upon it, the above explanation may appear complex but it's as simple as I can make it this evening. Anyway, it should allow you to deduce which of the two possibilities in your 21.14 question is correct.
Thank you David.
I try my best to explain these matters to people in as simple a manner as possible. Your thanks make it all worthwhile.
MrsProf has arranged for me to speak at the village WI institute next Tuesday to answer questions about the virus to an audience of around 80 women. I'm terrified!
I try my best to explain these matters to people in as simple a manner as possible. Your thanks make it all worthwhile.
MrsProf has arranged for me to speak at the village WI institute next Tuesday to answer questions about the virus to an audience of around 80 women. I'm terrified!
Thanks again theprof, I hope I deduce correctly that the entire entity SARS-CoV-2 is overall subject to potential mutation.
It looks suspicious that these variants started to proliferate enormously after the vaccine trials in, coincidentally, India (?) Brazil, UK, USA,South Africa,have you seen any analysis/data on such matters?
I also heard from various sources that the Stage 2 animal trial mRNA vaccine data was never released to the US government agency that decides of medical approval, so have you seen all the various covid-19 vaccine manufacturers rails data, and can and where can we ( the Public/ vaccine recipients) view it, if possible.
Are you aware of
"We'll of course have to wait to see what unfolds, but I would, at this point, suspect an influenza H3N2-like process of antigenic drift and necessarily frequent vaccine updates in the upcoming years."
https:/
These matters are so narrowly specialized we are at the mercy, and I pray, good faith, of unique individuals like you, theprof.
I hope your talk at the village WI institute went well.
It looks suspicious that these variants started to proliferate enormously after the vaccine trials in, coincidentally, India (?) Brazil, UK, USA,South Africa,have you seen any analysis/data on such matters?
I also heard from various sources that the Stage 2 animal trial mRNA vaccine data was never released to the US government agency that decides of medical approval, so have you seen all the various covid-19 vaccine manufacturers rails data, and can and where can we ( the Public/ vaccine recipients) view it, if possible.
Are you aware of
"We'll of course have to wait to see what unfolds, but I would, at this point, suspect an influenza H3N2-like process of antigenic drift and necessarily frequent vaccine updates in the upcoming years."
https:/
These matters are so narrowly specialized we are at the mercy, and I pray, good faith, of unique individuals like you, theprof.
I hope your talk at the village WI institute went well.
sevenOP, yes you can assume that the entire genome of the virus may mutate. Extensive research has concentrated on the spike to date, but research has continued elsewhere on the genome. Nucleocapsid proteins for example, serve as essential components for replication of the genome within the host cell and transcriptional activity. Several are important in the early and intermediate stages of the virion life cycle and it remains vital that we understand the processes involved.
There is no solid evidence that the virus proliferated after vaccine trials in the countries you mention. Papers have been published on these matters but peer-reviews have found serious errors in the methodologies and the conclusions drawn. I've personally seen some of these accounts and they don't convince me or my colleagues. There are a lot of them about.
Yes, I've seem a vast amount of data on stage 2 animal trials in the USA. The information was released to the FDA despite assertions on the Internet that the information was not. The FDA published a summary of the stuff on its own website which would have been impossible had they not seen the data. A key player in this farce, Angelina Farella, was responsible for claims that had no foundation in fact. There is no evidence of widespread animal deaths as a result of the pre-clinical trials. If there had been, it's questionable that human trials would have began.
Yes, I've seen all the trial data but I can't help you see it for yourself for a number of reasons. Firstly, you would not be able to understand what you are reading. Please don't take this as an insult but you have to be aware that I've got people with PhD's that work with me that don't understand all this stuff. Some concepts I even have difficulty with myself. The trial papers are laden with acronyms that you'd have to be familiar with and without a good understanding of virology you'd be lost. Secondly, the data is commercially confidential as there are lots of companies snaping at the heels of Moderna and Pfizer et al because they are trying to make a better vaccine at a cheaper cost. Thirdly, major research into Covid exists behind firewalls at such research laboratories such as Francis Crick, Porton Down and Lawrence Livermore etc all of who only allow their data to be read by recognised covid researchers.
There is no solid evidence that the virus proliferated after vaccine trials in the countries you mention. Papers have been published on these matters but peer-reviews have found serious errors in the methodologies and the conclusions drawn. I've personally seen some of these accounts and they don't convince me or my colleagues. There are a lot of them about.
Yes, I've seem a vast amount of data on stage 2 animal trials in the USA. The information was released to the FDA despite assertions on the Internet that the information was not. The FDA published a summary of the stuff on its own website which would have been impossible had they not seen the data. A key player in this farce, Angelina Farella, was responsible for claims that had no foundation in fact. There is no evidence of widespread animal deaths as a result of the pre-clinical trials. If there had been, it's questionable that human trials would have began.
Yes, I've seen all the trial data but I can't help you see it for yourself for a number of reasons. Firstly, you would not be able to understand what you are reading. Please don't take this as an insult but you have to be aware that I've got people with PhD's that work with me that don't understand all this stuff. Some concepts I even have difficulty with myself. The trial papers are laden with acronyms that you'd have to be familiar with and without a good understanding of virology you'd be lost. Secondly, the data is commercially confidential as there are lots of companies snaping at the heels of Moderna and Pfizer et al because they are trying to make a better vaccine at a cheaper cost. Thirdly, major research into Covid exists behind firewalls at such research laboratories such as Francis Crick, Porton Down and Lawrence Livermore etc all of who only allow their data to be read by recognised covid researchers.
hi - anyone there or is he being held prisoner in the WI hall?
You havent explained why they are getting delta ( rather than how does covid hijack the cells - there are alot of hour long viddies on u tube on the viral replication bit)
Sarah ( Gilbert silly, we are on first name terms) or you, said that the spike protein bound more closely and so entry was likelly to be quicker - I think
You havent explained why they are getting delta ( rather than how does covid hijack the cells - there are alot of hour long viddies on u tube on the viral replication bit)
Sarah ( Gilbert silly, we are on first name terms) or you, said that the spike protein bound more closely and so entry was likelly to be quicker - I think
I have never thought of thr public being at my mercy or the mercy of my colleagues. My own team, made up of 128 people right now, are of the same opinion and we are all doing it for the benefit of mankind however clichéd that may sound. I remain convinced we will beat this virus and I've put my heart and soul into the task as well as my weekends and annual holidays. Nevertheless, if I wasn't here, someone else would step into my shoes with equal vigour - I could get run down by a bus tomorrow and I insist my laboratories are run on such an eventuality as morbid as the statement may seem.
Peter, I did manage to escape the WI Hall by taking advantage of tea and cucumber sandwich interval. I checked with mrsprof that a back door was available beforehand.
Did I miss a question on how they are getting delta?
With regard to youtube videos, I'm not a fan. Do you think Peter that I should provide a link to the videos rather than explain here? Let's have a vote. It would make my life do much easier. Perhaps I need to post an abrupt "look on youtube" next time someone asks a question.
Both Sarah and I have said that the delta variant binds in a stronger manner. I've said it on AB and Sarah has said it to government committees. We even said it to each other during dinner two weeks ago at a marvellous restaurant.
Did I miss a question on how they are getting delta?
With regard to youtube videos, I'm not a fan. Do you think Peter that I should provide a link to the videos rather than explain here? Let's have a vote. It would make my life do much easier. Perhaps I need to post an abrupt "look on youtube" next time someone asks a question.
Both Sarah and I have said that the delta variant binds in a stronger manner. I've said it on AB and Sarah has said it to government committees. We even said it to each other during dinner two weeks ago at a marvellous restaurant.
theprof: "Yes, I've seem a vast amount of data on stage 2 animal trials in the USA...
The FDA published a summary of the stuff on its own website which would have been impossible had they not seen the data."
I have been unable to locate this "FDA published a summary of the stuff" ( 1,576 results on FDA website), any help would be appreciated.
"I have never thought of the public being at my mercy or the mercy of my colleagues."
The Public have had to put their 'blind faith' in numerous highly educated and specialized technocrats during this pandemic and rely on them acting in good faith.
e.g.
"Yes, I've seen all the trial data but I can't help you see it for yourself for a number of reasons. Firstly, you would not be able to understand what you are reading. ... Secondly, the data is commercially confidential ... Thirdly, major research into Covid exists behind firewalls ..."
Mercy me, indeed.
The FDA published a summary of the stuff on its own website which would have been impossible had they not seen the data."
I have been unable to locate this "FDA published a summary of the stuff" ( 1,576 results on FDA website), any help would be appreciated.
"I have never thought of the public being at my mercy or the mercy of my colleagues."
The Public have had to put their 'blind faith' in numerous highly educated and specialized technocrats during this pandemic and rely on them acting in good faith.
e.g.
"Yes, I've seen all the trial data but I can't help you see it for yourself for a number of reasons. Firstly, you would not be able to understand what you are reading. ... Secondly, the data is commercially confidential ... Thirdly, major research into Covid exists behind firewalls ..."
Mercy me, indeed.
both and
both your explanations
and the you tube videos - the punters can find themselves if they are interested.... not many are to be honest.
I got interested in the auto proof reading segment - allowing the virus to be much larger than usual for an mRNA - but it really doesnt change the price of potatoes
You can see how DNA once developed ( only once needed) took over the 'command of life'- I hadnt realised how much more stable it was. (shades of Darwin, so successful that it is unlikely intermediate forms will be observed)
both your explanations
and the you tube videos - the punters can find themselves if they are interested.... not many are to be honest.
I got interested in the auto proof reading segment - allowing the virus to be much larger than usual for an mRNA - but it really doesnt change the price of potatoes
You can see how DNA once developed ( only once needed) took over the 'command of life'- I hadnt realised how much more stable it was. (shades of Darwin, so successful that it is unlikely intermediate forms will be observed)
your answers please
very difficult with todays amount of knowledge, to see what is impt and what is noise
I have just read
https:/
and need to go and lie down
Nobel Prize for this announced today ( also mentions Furin which quite frankly seems to be getting everywhere these days )
very difficult with todays amount of knowledge, to see what is impt and what is noise
I have just read
https:/
and need to go and lie down
Nobel Prize for this announced today ( also mentions Furin which quite frankly seems to be getting everywhere these days )
Seven0P, the data you are seeking has recently been placed on a website they run that is only accessible to academics. I won't comment on their decision to do this but from past experience and the current attitude towards covid, I have some sympathy with the decision. The site is secure and regretfully, I cannot post the data concerned here.
With regard to putting "blind faith" in highly educated and specialised technocrats, twas ever thus. You may not like it but that is how it is.
I trust you aren't referring to me as a highly educated and specialised technocrat as nothing could be further from the truth. This is not a government that is based upon technocracy. All members of SAGE and suchlike are entitled to their decisions and conclusions on matters related to covid but government ministers are free not to listen to them, and rightly so. Believe me, it's rightly so and Sajid Javid said as much a few days ago, if you care to look. Incidentally, I'm not a member of SAGE or any sub-commitee.
You need to accept that there are people with the experience necessary to overcome this virus and that goes with academic qualification. It has always been so even during WWII when people put their faith in others. It's no different now.
Accept that the information you require is there for researchers, academics and others whose quest is to overcome this virus using the data concerned. It is not there for the general public as it is almost impossible to understand by those not qualified to do so. It is also not there to allow the misinformed to pick apart and provide sensationalist newspaper headlines, events which have happened before.
Every research facility and academic institution works on these principles regarding Covid. Did you really want to see the Oxford vaccine developers publish data in the public domain so that other countries could use it to develop a cheaper vaccine? Do you realise the job losses concerned and the financial implications? This is commercially sensitive information and this is how the world works nowadays. I don't make the rules.
Finally, I note from reviewing my answers to this topic, that you are the only person who has stated that you feel you have the right to review these matters. Others seem content to put their faith in scientists etc and personally, I'm grateful for the feedback I've received on AB.
I have answered your original question and the further questions you have posted and I'll continue to do the same as I have done for others on AB. However, I cannot assist in your quest so you really do need to accept these matters.
We all have a desire for knowledge but you need to accept that sometimes we are out of our depth.
With regard to putting "blind faith" in highly educated and specialised technocrats, twas ever thus. You may not like it but that is how it is.
I trust you aren't referring to me as a highly educated and specialised technocrat as nothing could be further from the truth. This is not a government that is based upon technocracy. All members of SAGE and suchlike are entitled to their decisions and conclusions on matters related to covid but government ministers are free not to listen to them, and rightly so. Believe me, it's rightly so and Sajid Javid said as much a few days ago, if you care to look. Incidentally, I'm not a member of SAGE or any sub-commitee.
You need to accept that there are people with the experience necessary to overcome this virus and that goes with academic qualification. It has always been so even during WWII when people put their faith in others. It's no different now.
Accept that the information you require is there for researchers, academics and others whose quest is to overcome this virus using the data concerned. It is not there for the general public as it is almost impossible to understand by those not qualified to do so. It is also not there to allow the misinformed to pick apart and provide sensationalist newspaper headlines, events which have happened before.
Every research facility and academic institution works on these principles regarding Covid. Did you really want to see the Oxford vaccine developers publish data in the public domain so that other countries could use it to develop a cheaper vaccine? Do you realise the job losses concerned and the financial implications? This is commercially sensitive information and this is how the world works nowadays. I don't make the rules.
Finally, I note from reviewing my answers to this topic, that you are the only person who has stated that you feel you have the right to review these matters. Others seem content to put their faith in scientists etc and personally, I'm grateful for the feedback I've received on AB.
I have answered your original question and the further questions you have posted and I'll continue to do the same as I have done for others on AB. However, I cannot assist in your quest so you really do need to accept these matters.
We all have a desire for knowledge but you need to accept that sometimes we are out of our depth.
SevenOP, there's another factor too that you need to consider before you become more aggrieved by this situation.
All the major online resources to do with covid are under the ownership of government, military and academic institutions. Research laboratories such as Porton Down, Pirbright, Fort Detrick and the many others that we are in contact with sit behind server firewalls online that only permit access from known, authorised ip addresses.
My laboratories in university and elsewhere are registered on these servers which means that we can access the information and collaborate with each other. You will not have the necessary ip address nor the necessary usernames and passwords to access these sites.
Forgive me for pointing this out at this out now, but because my home computer networks as well as my laboratory ones are registered to access these services, I tend to forget they are in place as my networks connect directly.
You can check your ip address here:
https:/
All the major online resources to do with covid are under the ownership of government, military and academic institutions. Research laboratories such as Porton Down, Pirbright, Fort Detrick and the many others that we are in contact with sit behind server firewalls online that only permit access from known, authorised ip addresses.
My laboratories in university and elsewhere are registered on these servers which means that we can access the information and collaborate with each other. You will not have the necessary ip address nor the necessary usernames and passwords to access these sites.
Forgive me for pointing this out at this out now, but because my home computer networks as well as my laboratory ones are registered to access these services, I tend to forget they are in place as my networks connect directly.
You can check your ip address here:
https:/
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