Brexit - Does Anyone Here Have A Solution For The Irish Border Problem?

[Roman52]

So far our politicians have failed to find a workable solution.

[The_Rim_Greaper]

have to love the irony and the hypocrasy of the eussr

one thing they hate more than anything is nation states and their borders...yet here they are trying to protect and enforce what they see as their borders, not borders of lands theyve even fought for or have based on natural geological landscapes...no , just borders theyve gotten by proxy, bits of paper and undemocratically enforced treaties, all part of their "project"

[Togo]

Not to hand Khandro. I am about to go out and get my errands done but will dig out a couple of references when I get back if you have not found them. I will point out that some while back before the Brexit vote even, I indeed posted of these oil deposits on this site and related that I knew of them even before the pipeline was laid. I had a pal(male) who was PA to the MD of a local company that was a World leader in the discovery and mapping of mineral and oil deposits and operated all over the World. One night over a pint of G&T during a lock in at the local pub he related a story of massive oil fields off NI and indeed Cobalt deposits that just needed hoovering up. This was in the very early 70s and of course at the height of the "troubles" so no development was ever likely to take place with the threat of a terrorist bombing campaign as a threat. The pipeline, to my astonishment was laid when the North Sea oil reserves were making progress under the guise as a means of bringing them ashore. I also knew men who worked on the pipeline. Men who had worked on similar pipelines all over the World and they were all of a mind that it was a very unusual project with a high degree of secrecy and discussion lockdown compared to most of their previous contracts. The longer I have had to digest the various bits and pieces of the story and of course the most recent subsequent developments the more I realise that my old pal was not exagerationg.

[Khandro]

Oil deposits, if so, would belong to Ireland (North and/or South), not the EU, just like the North Sea deposits belong to the UK, allowing only the UK government to grant licences, not the EU, - surely?

[New Judge]

"...just like the North Sea deposits belong to the UK, allowing only the UK government to grant licences, not the EU, - surely?"

Certainly at the moment. The problem is the status quo does not last very long where the EU is concerned.

[Peter Pedant]

from what Theresa May said at lunch time
HMG seems resigned to a hard brexit
the Pound has taken a bath ....

My own view is that if the Republic wsant a border they build one

( but I suspect that that is not that simple for the simple reason of VAT - which isnt a duty but goes under special rules)

[Roman52]

New Judge - to answer your question about lorries travelling between Dublin and Belfast after we leave the EU entirely depends on what deal if any has been agreed.
If we crash out and move to WTO rules the EU will in all probability enforce a hard border in order to keep its status as a free trade area and to prove to the WTO that it can control its external borders properly. We can decide not but under WTO rules, unless you’re in a free trade bloc like the EU or NAFTA, you have to obey the “most favoured nation” rule if the UK chooses not impose any tariffs on goods coming across the border… that would mean that the UK is giving the EU (because Ireland is the EU in this context) complete open access. So its most favoured nation tariff is zero. That means it would have to give a zero tariff access to every single country in the WTO. That would have a devastating effect on farming, fishing etc

[Samuraisan]

People I have spoken to voted out mainly to control illegal immigration, they thought. But if Brexit happens, surely now they could just re-route through Ireland, cross the non existant border and hey ho, they are in Britain ?

[Jackdaw33]

In theory, yes. In practice, no. Try stowing away on a boat between France and the ROI.

[Khandro]

//People I have spoken to voted out mainly to control illegal immigration, they thought. But if Brexit happens, surely now they could just re-route through Ireland, cross the non existant border and hey ho, they are in Britain ?//

How many times does it need saying? They have to first get into the Irish Republic which is NOT in Schengen, so nothing changes.

[New Judge]

"If we crash out and move to WTO rules the EU will in all probability enforce a hard border..."

How? Who will do it? How will they do it? (I keep on asking). The EU does not have the authority or the resources to operate a border control.

"But if Brexit happens, surely now they could just re-route through Ireland, cross the non existant border and hey ho, they are in Britain?"

Good grief! How many more times? (Shouts) Why don't they do that now, then? There is no policed border at present. Why should they feel more inclined to try their luck after Brexit?

[Roman52]

"How? Who will do it? How will they do it? (I keep on asking). The EU does not have the authority or the resources to operate a border control."

the Irish border is not the only EU border, if you join a club like the EU you follow their rules, and as I've said before for the EU to keep their status as a free trade area they must control their borders, RoI will have to enforce a hard border, just as all the rest of the countries that border non EU countries have to do.

It's really not that hard to understand!

[Togo]

// RoI will have to enforce a hard border, just as all the rest of the countries that border non EU countries have to do. //

What, like Hungary? Or Greece? Or Italy? etc. etc. who are not allowed to control their borders.

[New Judge]

"It's really not that hard to understand!"

I'm afraid it is. The EU may have other borders but the Irish one is the only one that matters here.

"RoI will have to enforce a hard border,"

Ireland has stated categorically that they will not impose a hard border, however the UK leaves the EU. Even if they were so inclined, they simply would not be able to do so. There are over 200 crossing points between the two countries spread over 300 or so miles with huge complications if it were to be policed (which it hasn't been effectively for over a hundred years):

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ireland-has-208-border-crossings-officials-from-north-and-south-agree-1.3474246

So once again, who is going to do it and how? Simply trotting out the same thing over and over that "something will happen" does not answer the fundamental question.

[Roman52]

I do actually agree with you NJ, a hard border on the actual border would be impossible to control and enforce, however the problem remains that if we crash out then the border has to go somewhere. Where that place is that doesn't break the Good Friday Agreement or *** off the DUP is currently anybody's guess.

To repeatedly ask a question that doesn't currently have an answer is pointless.

[New Judge]

"To repeatedly ask a question that doesn't currently have an answer is pointless."

No more pointless than to keep saying "the border must go somewhere/be imposed somehow/etc." is.

Nobody has any intention of imposing a hard border (i.e. one where vehicles/people/goods/etc. are actually intercepted and stopped) and that's what we're talking about - not other methods of customs control; nobody has the will, the ability or the resources to do it. In those circumstances it is more pointless to suggest that it will happen "somehow" than it is to ask how it will happen.

The question indeed doesn't have an answer and it wouldn't need asking if people refrained from saying that a hard border will result in a "no deal" Brexit. When someone suggests that something will happen when you know it will not because of impracticalities it is not unreasonable to ask "how?"

[Roman52]

I give up!

Just one last point I haven't been saying a hard border will result in a no-deal Brexit, I'm saying a no-deal Brexit will result in a hard border. A world of difference

[New Judge]

Yes, my typo. The suggestion is that a hard Brexit must result in a hard border in Ireland. Thanks for pointing that out. Otherwise, my point stands.