Crosswords1 min ago
Should Islam be an illegal organisation in this country.
62 Answers
When you read things like this: http://news.sky.com/s...n_Exclusive_Interview
Why should we have to tolerate this in our country I hear you all saying "but they aren't all terrorists" maybe not, but they all belong to a faith that supports this and we cannot separate them so send them all back to where they come from or where their views will be appreciated!
or maybe they could just find a God that will strike them all down for their evil actions!!!
I remember Mike Tyson going into the boxing ring and saying "Allah" will protect me, do these people really think that any of these so called Gods will protect someone as evil and horrible as Tyson, this God was going to protect him while he potentially is punching the life out of another boxer.
I really don't understand any of these religious sorts, their gods are always surrounded by so much evil and death, in the past and its still happening!!!
I'm so glad to have no such connections or beliefs.
I do not need these gods or beliefs to be happy and I certainly do not need the godly crutch to lean on, I live my life according to my morals, I know what is right or wrong.
Why should we have to tolerate this in our country I hear you all saying "but they aren't all terrorists" maybe not, but they all belong to a faith that supports this and we cannot separate them so send them all back to where they come from or where their views will be appreciated!
or maybe they could just find a God that will strike them all down for their evil actions!!!
I remember Mike Tyson going into the boxing ring and saying "Allah" will protect me, do these people really think that any of these so called Gods will protect someone as evil and horrible as Tyson, this God was going to protect him while he potentially is punching the life out of another boxer.
I really don't understand any of these religious sorts, their gods are always surrounded by so much evil and death, in the past and its still happening!!!
I'm so glad to have no such connections or beliefs.
I do not need these gods or beliefs to be happy and I certainly do not need the godly crutch to lean on, I live my life according to my morals, I know what is right or wrong.
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Ok, so perhaps we have to change the topic of the question now. So why do you think that then they were sent by the politicians and now by God? And perhaps I will have to go back to your earlier statement now as that is what you have more emphasis on.
Where does God say (in this regard in Quran) that Muslims should kill innocent people?
Where does God say (in this regard in Quran) that Muslims should kill innocent people?
You've asked this question before Keyplus. Where indeed does it say in the Koran that it's okay to kill innocent people?
It doesn't. However, look at this verse (5:32), “If anyone slays a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew all people. And if anyone saves a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all people”. So according to the Islamic scriptures, it's okay to kill someone if they've murdered another person and it's okay to kill someone who spreads mischief.
Hmmm... 'spreading mischief' – what could that mean...?
Islam defines 'mischief makers' as those who reject Islam or oppose its goals. So, the verse (and therefore the Islamic faith) actually says that killing a Muslim is akin to killing all mankind and implicit in this statement is the idea that a non-Muslim cannot be considered to be 'innocent'. Ergo, non-Muslims can be murdered with impunity. This may not be what you personally believe, but this is how suicide bombers and those who support them justify their actions.
It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on this matter Keyplus as I am an atheist. Do you consider me to be innocent or am I a 'mischief maker'?
It doesn't. However, look at this verse (5:32), “If anyone slays a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew all people. And if anyone saves a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all people”. So according to the Islamic scriptures, it's okay to kill someone if they've murdered another person and it's okay to kill someone who spreads mischief.
Hmmm... 'spreading mischief' – what could that mean...?
Islam defines 'mischief makers' as those who reject Islam or oppose its goals. So, the verse (and therefore the Islamic faith) actually says that killing a Muslim is akin to killing all mankind and implicit in this statement is the idea that a non-Muslim cannot be considered to be 'innocent'. Ergo, non-Muslims can be murdered with impunity. This may not be what you personally believe, but this is how suicide bombers and those who support them justify their actions.
It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on this matter Keyplus as I am an atheist. Do you consider me to be innocent or am I a 'mischief maker'?
The Taliban do not represent rank and file Muslim people any more than organisations liek Hisb ut Tahrir do, We shouldn't be condemning all for the sake of the militant few. It's been said before, nobody suggested outlawing religion in Northern Ireland when the IRA were active, or Christian faiths in the US when incidents like Waco took place.
Whatever happened to critical analysis?
Why do you automatically assume this man is truthful?
Because he's a Muslim, or because Muslims can't be trusted?
Perhaps your belief in his statements pander to your own prejudices?
Just a thought that maybe this is piece of Taliban propaganda, regurgitated witout serious comment to sell advertising.
Look at it this way, who benefits from the divulgence of this information?
Their sponsors in Britain certainly wouldn't as the first thing the government will do is follow their money.
Who benefits from this, an organisation that wants to cause trouble in the country of it's enemy, then seeks to create mistrust and further alienate Muslims within that country, good idea for recruitment....
Who benefits from this, "funding comes from Islamic centres", what like the one they're building in New York?
Why do you automatically assume this man is truthful?
Because he's a Muslim, or because Muslims can't be trusted?
Perhaps your belief in his statements pander to your own prejudices?
Just a thought that maybe this is piece of Taliban propaganda, regurgitated witout serious comment to sell advertising.
Look at it this way, who benefits from the divulgence of this information?
Their sponsors in Britain certainly wouldn't as the first thing the government will do is follow their money.
Who benefits from this, an organisation that wants to cause trouble in the country of it's enemy, then seeks to create mistrust and further alienate Muslims within that country, good idea for recruitment....
Who benefits from this, "funding comes from Islamic centres", what like the one they're building in New York?
Birdie – without going into details of all those assumption you have mentioned there for being innocent or not innocent, I would only say one thing that I would take that as your opinion although I do know that neither ordinary Muslims believe that nor do these so called terrorists although they may have other reasons to commit their hideous acts but I will not go into that detail either.
Now having said that I must say that I am not sure if you do that purposely or it is just an oversight that why you always give half of the verse from Quran.
5:32. On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.
Now I will leave you to compare the difference but although every Muslim believes in this verse as being applicable still at present but also knows that this verse very clearly was for specific people (mentioned very clearly) and due to specific incidents mentioned in the earlier verses.
Then once again you cannot judge Islam by just one verse. Islam has complete system and things are usually viewed from all perspectives. In simple words Islam does not allow individuals to make above decisions but state and judicial system should take care of these matters. However I can still give you examples of what I may believe comes under “mischief” in this regard. Drug dealings, rape, etc are few. Or it may make sense to look at countries that are not Muslim and have death penalty fro crimes apart from murder.
As to your last question I am not sure if you will take my words for it or not but I don’t believe that being only atheist
Now having said that I must say that I am not sure if you do that purposely or it is just an oversight that why you always give half of the verse from Quran.
5:32. On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.
Now I will leave you to compare the difference but although every Muslim believes in this verse as being applicable still at present but also knows that this verse very clearly was for specific people (mentioned very clearly) and due to specific incidents mentioned in the earlier verses.
Then once again you cannot judge Islam by just one verse. Islam has complete system and things are usually viewed from all perspectives. In simple words Islam does not allow individuals to make above decisions but state and judicial system should take care of these matters. However I can still give you examples of what I may believe comes under “mischief” in this regard. Drug dealings, rape, etc are few. Or it may make sense to look at countries that are not Muslim and have death penalty fro crimes apart from murder.
As to your last question I am not sure if you will take my words for it or not but I don’t believe that being only atheist
Actually after I posted the above, one good example came to my mind to clarify “mischief”. Arabic word used there is “fassad” and although Arabic is not my language but this same word with the same meanings is also used in Urdu (my language) and I must say word “fassad” has very vast meanings and unfortunately “mischief” does not do justice. But what would you say if someone who could foresee the near future and had killed Hitler? Although by then he had not murdered or killed anyone or say for example you are a policeman and see a terrorist who is going to blow himself and would kill lots of innocent people. Would you shoot him and not give him chance to kill others, and would you be hailed for that or be called murderer as in reality until then that person had not killed anyone.
I personally would say that both the one who killed Hitler or the policeman did the right thing as those people were about to create “fassad” in the land which would have done big damage in short and in long run.
I personally would say that both the one who killed Hitler or the policeman did the right thing as those people were about to create “fassad” in the land which would have done big damage in short and in long run.
Hi Keyplus,
“... you cannot judge Islam by just one verse.” - I'm not. I specifically stated that you may not hold this view. However, the aforementioned verse IS the one that fundamentalist Islamic lunatics use to justify the murder of non-Muslims.
It begs the question, if God in His infinite wisdom wanted to give a message of love and hope to mankind, why didn't He chose His words (and that of His Prophet) more wisely?
As for you comment, “.... I am not sure if you do that purposely or it is just an oversight that why you always give half of the verse from Quran.”. - Wow. That's rich. You yourself have foreshortened numerous Islamic quotes to shore up your arguments in the past. However, this is the verse that those who wish to portray Islam as the religion of peace regularly trot out by truncating the quote so that it reads, “If any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people.” (source: http://emuslim.com/IslamAgainstVoilence.asp)
That begs a further question – who's translation of the Koran should we trust?
“... you cannot judge Islam by just one verse.” - I'm not. I specifically stated that you may not hold this view. However, the aforementioned verse IS the one that fundamentalist Islamic lunatics use to justify the murder of non-Muslims.
It begs the question, if God in His infinite wisdom wanted to give a message of love and hope to mankind, why didn't He chose His words (and that of His Prophet) more wisely?
As for you comment, “.... I am not sure if you do that purposely or it is just an oversight that why you always give half of the verse from Quran.”. - Wow. That's rich. You yourself have foreshortened numerous Islamic quotes to shore up your arguments in the past. However, this is the verse that those who wish to portray Islam as the religion of peace regularly trot out by truncating the quote so that it reads, “If any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people.” (source: http://emuslim.com/IslamAgainstVoilence.asp)
That begs a further question – who's translation of the Koran should we trust?
Why waste pixels quoting ancient beliefs that derived in lands none of us ever experienced. We need survival today, together to move on. If we & UN didn't police Afghanistan other forces would as in the past with OBLadin (arab) & Russia. The drug production is unacceptable and dangerous to our childrens existance.
Walk away from groups/sects/religions that channel finance to the Taliban (unelected warriors) and maybe Afghanistan will once again be peaceful, re-built where true Afghanis can survive.
Walk away from groups/sects/religions that channel finance to the Taliban (unelected warriors) and maybe Afghanistan will once again be peaceful, re-built where true Afghanis can survive.
Having just experienced an islamic wedding of 500 people for 4hours. I was impressed with their order, respect and total absence of alcohol. All guests left hired premises as sober as they arrived, without any damage or trashing of premises, that we usually experience. They all drove away safely.
Not all Islamics are bad nor dangerous, in fact in this particular event they set an excellent example.
Not all Islamics are bad nor dangerous, in fact in this particular event they set an excellent example.
And again as I said Muslims do not take Quran just by any one verse and it is a complete system. Where you may take that verse as it suits you and so does others you are talking about, majority of Muslims also look at other bits in Quran like these....
10:99. If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe!
10:100. No soul can believe, except by the will of Allah, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand.
And this,
2:190. Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.
And to go with that, take this one too,
8:61. But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah. for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).
So plenty to think about but of course few people will only pick what they want to pick.
As for which translation to believe? I would say for 98% Quran anyone but for rest of 2% none as no translation is ever mistake free especially for religious books as people can only think of what they have knowledge of plus Arabic is specifically such a huge language that sometime there are more than ten different words for same thing.
Even in Urdu we have different words for mother’s brother and sister, father’s brother and sister and almost for every single relationship whereas to translate in English all you need is Uncle, aunt, grand father and grand mother.
10:99. If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe!
10:100. No soul can believe, except by the will of Allah, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand.
And this,
2:190. Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.
And to go with that, take this one too,
8:61. But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah. for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).
So plenty to think about but of course few people will only pick what they want to pick.
As for which translation to believe? I would say for 98% Quran anyone but for rest of 2% none as no translation is ever mistake free especially for religious books as people can only think of what they have knowledge of plus Arabic is specifically such a huge language that sometime there are more than ten different words for same thing.
Even in Urdu we have different words for mother’s brother and sister, father’s brother and sister and almost for every single relationship whereas to translate in English all you need is Uncle, aunt, grand father and grand mother.
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