ChatterBank1 min ago
I need some advice please!
44 Answers
My 13yr old daughter has asked me some questions about the bible and religion and i'm not quite sure how to answer them. I do not believe in God but have brought her up to always respect the views and beliefs of others(religious or otherwise) even if she doesn't agree with them. She would like to know - 1. How can people believe that a baby (Jesus) could be conceived in any other way apart from the conventional way? 2. Why does the Bible say that being gay is wrong when gay people are allowed to be priests and does that mean that even though they are doing God's work does He still think they are wrong. 3. How come some things in the Bible are still followed today but not others? When she asked I said I didn't know but would get back to her on it. Any views welcome! Thanks
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1) Because of faith
2) Gay people are allowed to be priests in certain religions. The Bible, like all text, is open to interpretation (and has been translated several times as well). Some people think it should be taken literally, some people think that it is a 'guide'
3) Again - some people take it as a 'guide' and think that the world has progressed.
Always remember, The Bible is a book that was written in the past tense by many people and has changed a lot over the years.
2) Gay people are allowed to be priests in certain religions. The Bible, like all text, is open to interpretation (and has been translated several times as well). Some people think it should be taken literally, some people think that it is a 'guide'
3) Again - some people take it as a 'guide' and think that the world has progressed.
Always remember, The Bible is a book that was written in the past tense by many people and has changed a lot over the years.
1: people can indeed be conceived in different ways - eg artificial insemination. And some animals don't need a male to contribute
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6681793.st m
- what this all imples is that people are prepared to believe that they personally don't know everything; that things which happen may be out of the ordinary or apparently totally inexplicable.
2: some of the books of the Old Testament may take a hard line on gays - in fact Leviticus takes a hard line on everything - but the focus of most Christian belief is the New Testament, in which Christ preaches a message of love rather than of crime and punishment. Not very many Christians take every word of the Bible literally.
3: as above, really. The earlier in the Bible something comes (plus Revelation, at the end), the less people are inclined to find it a useful guide to living and believing. Christians get their beliefs from the Bible but also from their upbringing and their everyday experiences; and where these conflict, they make choices.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6681793.st m
- what this all imples is that people are prepared to believe that they personally don't know everything; that things which happen may be out of the ordinary or apparently totally inexplicable.
2: some of the books of the Old Testament may take a hard line on gays - in fact Leviticus takes a hard line on everything - but the focus of most Christian belief is the New Testament, in which Christ preaches a message of love rather than of crime and punishment. Not very many Christians take every word of the Bible literally.
3: as above, really. The earlier in the Bible something comes (plus Revelation, at the end), the less people are inclined to find it a useful guide to living and believing. Christians get their beliefs from the Bible but also from their upbringing and their everyday experiences; and where these conflict, they make choices.
1. How can people believe in many things, heaven, hell, ghosts, UFO�s, King Arthur, the Bermuda Triangle, the Loch Ness monster, Mariah Carey can sing? If you can answer that, then you can answer the original question.
2. Only six or seven of the Bible's one million verses refer to same-sex behaviour in any way - and none of these verses refer to homosexual orientation as it is understood today.
3. Like what for example?
2. Only six or seven of the Bible's one million verses refer to same-sex behaviour in any way - and none of these verses refer to homosexual orientation as it is understood today.
3. Like what for example?
Thank you both for your answers! jno, she knows about IVF etc (probably not about the shark link though which i will show her later) but i'm guessing that due to a lack of scientific advances that would not have been an option then? The question about gay priests etc came up because a girl at school told her that gay people are sinners and don't go to heaven-they have to ask for forgiveness first. My daughter said that surely by asking for forgiveness they were saying that they knew they were wrong even if they believed that they weren't!
2 - You are surely having a wee jokey-poo with us, Octavius.
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." Lev.20:13
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." Lev 18:22
What's not about "homosexual orientation as it is understood today" there?
As for there only being about six or seven verses, I count at least 40 unambigous verses and many more ambigious ones.
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." Lev.20:13
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." Lev 18:22
What's not about "homosexual orientation as it is understood today" there?
As for there only being about six or seven verses, I count at least 40 unambigous verses and many more ambigious ones.
Oh Waldo, Leviticus is a holiness code written 3,000 years ago. The code includes many outdated sexual laws including such gems as:
The Bible forbids a married couple from having sexual intercourse during a woman's period. If they disobey, both shall be executed.
�.and the very charming�..
If a man dies childless, his widow is ordered by biblical law to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until she bears her deceased husband a male heir.
It also includes prohibitions against round haircuts, tattoos, working on the Sabbath, wearing garments of mixed fabrics, eating pork or shellfish, getting your fortune told, and even playing with the skin of a pig.
This code was a list of behaviours that people of faith find offensive in a certain place and time. In this case, the code was written for priests only, and its primary intent was to set the priests of Israel over and against priests of other cultures.
The Bible forbids a married couple from having sexual intercourse during a woman's period. If they disobey, both shall be executed.
�.and the very charming�..
If a man dies childless, his widow is ordered by biblical law to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until she bears her deceased husband a male heir.
It also includes prohibitions against round haircuts, tattoos, working on the Sabbath, wearing garments of mixed fabrics, eating pork or shellfish, getting your fortune told, and even playing with the skin of a pig.
This code was a list of behaviours that people of faith find offensive in a certain place and time. In this case, the code was written for priests only, and its primary intent was to set the priests of Israel over and against priests of other cultures.
I'm not disagreeing anything about those other retarded and barbaric commandments, but saying "none of these verses refer to homosexual orientation as it is understood today" doesn't wash.
Unless you're aware of some substantial change in the mechanics of homosexual sex over the last two thousand years, it seems pretty unambigious to me.
Unless you're aware of some substantial change in the mechanics of homosexual sex over the last two thousand years, it seems pretty unambigious to me.
Waldo, you seem to be agreeing with the meaning of the scriptures always put across by Right Wing Christians who would happily stone a few homosexuals to death. I prefer to distance myself from such people. As Shakespeare said, �Even the devil can cite Scripture for his purpose."
You also missed ��
Don't let cattle graze with other kinds of Cattle (Leviticus 19:19)
Don't have a variety of crops on the same field. (Leviticus 19:19)
Don't wear clothes made of more than one fabric (Leviticus 19:19)
Don't cut your hair nor shave. (Leviticus 19:27)
Any person who curseth his mother or father, must be killed. (Leviticus 20:9)
If a priest's daughter is a *****, she is to be burnt at the stake. (Leviticus 21:9)
Incidentally, Leviticus says nothing at all about gay marriage, nor does he talk of gay people going to hell. Can you cite any other anti-gay references part from Leviticus?
The Bible is a book about God, not a book about human sexuality.
You also missed ��
Don't let cattle graze with other kinds of Cattle (Leviticus 19:19)
Don't have a variety of crops on the same field. (Leviticus 19:19)
Don't wear clothes made of more than one fabric (Leviticus 19:19)
Don't cut your hair nor shave. (Leviticus 19:27)
Any person who curseth his mother or father, must be killed. (Leviticus 20:9)
If a priest's daughter is a *****, she is to be burnt at the stake. (Leviticus 21:9)
Incidentally, Leviticus says nothing at all about gay marriage, nor does he talk of gay people going to hell. Can you cite any other anti-gay references part from Leviticus?
The Bible is a book about God, not a book about human sexuality.
I wouldn't mind if I were making up these verses, but I'm not. I'm merely stating what the book actually, unambigiously says about homosexuals in an effort to answer the original question.
Sorry if you don't like the fact that those verses are in there, but they are. The fact that other stupid verses exist is irrelevent.
Possibly - I've just realised this - you think I'm suggesting all Christians support the 'kill the faggots' verses. I wasn't - the fact that most Christians don't agree with the obviously insane morality of the OT is, of course, more support for the fact that Christians just pick and choose which beliefs are moral, and that morality is not derived from scripture.
Sorry if you don't like the fact that those verses are in there, but they are. The fact that other stupid verses exist is irrelevent.
Possibly - I've just realised this - you think I'm suggesting all Christians support the 'kill the faggots' verses. I wasn't - the fact that most Christians don't agree with the obviously insane morality of the OT is, of course, more support for the fact that Christians just pick and choose which beliefs are moral, and that morality is not derived from scripture.
As for non-Leviticus anti-gay verses, here's a few:
Deuteronomy 23:14
For the LORD thy God walketh in the midst of thy camp, to deliver thee, and to give up thine enemies before thee; therefore shall thy camp be holy: that he see no unclean thing in thee, and turn away from thee.
[...]
23:17 There shall be no ***** of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel.
1 Kings 14:24
And there were also sodomites in the land: and they did according to all the abominations of the nations which the LORD cast out before the children of Israel.
Romans 1 26:32
1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
[...]
1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
1 Corinithians 6:9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Jude 7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
Deuteronomy 23:14
For the LORD thy God walketh in the midst of thy camp, to deliver thee, and to give up thine enemies before thee; therefore shall thy camp be holy: that he see no unclean thing in thee, and turn away from thee.
[...]
23:17 There shall be no ***** of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel.
1 Kings 14:24
And there were also sodomites in the land: and they did according to all the abominations of the nations which the LORD cast out before the children of Israel.
Romans 1 26:32
1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
[...]
1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
1 Corinithians 6:9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Jude 7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
-- answer removed --
2 and 3 are related.
The old testament relates directly to Jewish tribal history. More liberal churchmen would say that many of the prohibitions in there relate directly to that time and do not have to be carried over into modern times.
More conservative ones would tell you that prohibition of things like homosexuality are absolute and are "always wrong"
You pays yer money and takes yer choice!
As for incredible things in the Bible - If only it were just the virgin birth!
There are a whole stream of miracles - The sun stopping in the sky, the folld, raising of the dead the list is endless.
The traditional element will tell you that they're all (or at least mostly) true
In reality if you wanted your Holy man / messiah / whatever to be considered seriously in the 1st century he had to be able to perform miracles and to fulfill prophesies.
The logic of that time was different. If you "knew" Jesus was the messiah and a prophesy said that the messiah had 3 legs then Jesus had 3 legs and anything that suggested to the contrary was wrong.
This was not as ridiculous as it seems to us. We have the benefit of understanding about what we'd think of as logic or rational thought.
Of course when you try to carry that logic into the 21st Century - well even a 13 year old girl can spot the flaws!
The old testament relates directly to Jewish tribal history. More liberal churchmen would say that many of the prohibitions in there relate directly to that time and do not have to be carried over into modern times.
More conservative ones would tell you that prohibition of things like homosexuality are absolute and are "always wrong"
You pays yer money and takes yer choice!
As for incredible things in the Bible - If only it were just the virgin birth!
There are a whole stream of miracles - The sun stopping in the sky, the folld, raising of the dead the list is endless.
The traditional element will tell you that they're all (or at least mostly) true
In reality if you wanted your Holy man / messiah / whatever to be considered seriously in the 1st century he had to be able to perform miracles and to fulfill prophesies.
The logic of that time was different. If you "knew" Jesus was the messiah and a prophesy said that the messiah had 3 legs then Jesus had 3 legs and anything that suggested to the contrary was wrong.
This was not as ridiculous as it seems to us. We have the benefit of understanding about what we'd think of as logic or rational thought.
Of course when you try to carry that logic into the 21st Century - well even a 13 year old girl can spot the flaws!
Precisely jake, always the effervescent rationale amongst the murky waters of the love/hate divide.
Waldo, the abominations to which you and Leviticus refer came from when the Sodomites were said to be guilty of anal sex, oral sex and bestiality - which were all deemed immoral, even if with a woman. Or a goat. Or a man. Even with yourself it would seem.
If you wish to assert that to �know someone� (as to the event which you refer) is "to engage in sexual intercourse" in the particular manners described above, then perhaps you are as fancifully creative with interpretation as those right wing Christians.
I never said that the verses were not there.
Wazzard, my expression of freewill means that it is my prerogative to interpret meaning as I see God intended. The parts I choose as relevant mainly refer to love and compassion, the parts I don�t, refer to warmongering and hate.
Waldo, the abominations to which you and Leviticus refer came from when the Sodomites were said to be guilty of anal sex, oral sex and bestiality - which were all deemed immoral, even if with a woman. Or a goat. Or a man. Even with yourself it would seem.
If you wish to assert that to �know someone� (as to the event which you refer) is "to engage in sexual intercourse" in the particular manners described above, then perhaps you are as fancifully creative with interpretation as those right wing Christians.
I never said that the verses were not there.
Wazzard, my expression of freewill means that it is my prerogative to interpret meaning as I see God intended. The parts I choose as relevant mainly refer to love and compassion, the parts I don�t, refer to warmongering and hate.
I don�t know why people are arguing over these simple questions.
1 - People did not believe even at that time and few still do not. That was the reason God gave Jesus (pbuh) power to speak even when he was in the cradle. Just imagine Marry (pbuh) telling people herself that I conceived him without any human intervention. Would you believe your sister or daughter��. No So God did not leave her vulnerable at that time. As far as NOW is concerned then it is Faith because we did not see that, you believe in it or not.
2 � Gay and homosexuality is not good for the society and you do not have to be a rocket scientist to understand that. As far as Gay priests are concerned then only Christians can answer this and I am not Christian.
3 � Bible was invaded by people who wrote it. And that is the reason few things are correct even to date and many are outdated. Those outdated ones were most probably the words of Luke, John and others. And the words which are still true were the words of God told by Jesus (pbuh).
Finally being a Muslim I believe that anything in Bible that can be tested against what is in Quran is right and will never be outdated although we may or may not agree with that due to the limited human knowledge.
1 - People did not believe even at that time and few still do not. That was the reason God gave Jesus (pbuh) power to speak even when he was in the cradle. Just imagine Marry (pbuh) telling people herself that I conceived him without any human intervention. Would you believe your sister or daughter��. No So God did not leave her vulnerable at that time. As far as NOW is concerned then it is Faith because we did not see that, you believe in it or not.
2 � Gay and homosexuality is not good for the society and you do not have to be a rocket scientist to understand that. As far as Gay priests are concerned then only Christians can answer this and I am not Christian.
3 � Bible was invaded by people who wrote it. And that is the reason few things are correct even to date and many are outdated. Those outdated ones were most probably the words of Luke, John and others. And the words which are still true were the words of God told by Jesus (pbuh).
Finally being a Muslim I believe that anything in Bible that can be tested against what is in Quran is right and will never be outdated although we may or may not agree with that due to the limited human knowledge.
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