Trinity ?

[Puddintane]

Can anyone tell me where to look in scripture that specifically mentions the Trinity ? Not the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.. Could there be a reference to three Gods in one. Or somewhere the disciples called Jesus Father or God or refered to Him as God. I really need to know.
Thank You

[Octavius]

The word 'trinity' does not appear anywhere in the Bible. Nor does the word Bible.

Trinity is merely implied, and is a doctrine as set out by the credal formulation of the Council of Constantinople in the 4th C.

[Clanad]

Actually, the Doctrine was defined much earlier than the 4th century. Tertullian discussed its aspects somewhere ca. 180. Additionally, the phrase does occur in Scripture... Matthew 28:19 quotes Yeshua ""Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." (Ch. 28 v. 19).

The dual nature of God is inferred in the very first phrase in the Old Covenant... "In the beginning, God..." (******* bara elohim). The Hebrew word translated as God is Elohim.... the plural of Eloha, but used in this verse as The God (singular) of Israel but in a plural tense.
The Apostle John is generally conceded to be the latest writer in the New Covenant... in his Gospel at Ch.1, vs. 1 he submits "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." The clear implication is that Yeshua was the Word and had always existed as God, yet with God. Additionally, in Beresh!t (Genesis) The Spirit of God hovered over the surface of the waters... (Ch. 1, vs. 2)..
Several places the Doctrine is clearly enunciated, in my opinion...

[Octavius]

Well if you want to be pernickety about it! I never meant to imply that it was 'invented' at that time, since we all know that Trinitarianism, and even Hypostasis were not new concepts, preceding even Jesus by many years. My point above was about the doctrine of the divinity and personality of the Holy Spirit being developed by Athanasius (c 293 - 373) in the last decades of his life.

He both defended and refined the Nicene formula and by by the end of the 4th century, under the leadership of Basil of Caesarea, Gregory of Nyssa, and Gregory of Nazianzus (the Cappadocian Fathers), the doctrine had reached substantially its current form.

[Octavius]

The word trinity is in fact a theological term adopted by Christians to define what the Bible teaches concerning God.

Since �Pagan� is more or less everything that went before/during/after Christianity, I think we can accept �borrowing� or �confiscating� elements as read. Perhaps you could narrow the field of paganism to define exactly where trinitarianism began?

Actually I�ll help, perhaps the ancient Egyptian pantheon (Osiris, Isis and Horus), and the Neo-Platonic philosophy (God as a demiurge)?

But Athanasius, as I have mentioned above, condemned the (three person) worship of Osiris, Horus and Isis as "straining impiety to the utmost... worshipping pleasure and lust, as do the pagan Romans and Greeks".

Also God as a Demiurge bears no resemblance to the Christian trinity, as they have no equality with the �one�. Whereas in the Biblical trinity God the Father loves the Son in unity with the Spirit, there is no sense of unity in the Platonic scheme.

So to which �strain� of paganism are you referring?

[chakka35]

Shouldn't this discussion be on R&S, the site I escaped from so as to avoid all this ancient superstition?

[Octavius]

I thought you had retired defeated rather than escaped.

Was it a premature exit?

[Octavius]

Well you never mentioned I would have to read a whole book?!

[Octavius]

Nothing has such power to broaden the mind as the ability to investigate systematically and truly all that comes under thy observation in life.

Sometimes broadening the mind merely lengthens the conversation.

[Ric.ror]

Yes but can you tell me why Superscout won't let me access the sport section - there is a very important match on tonight

[Clanad]

Easy, there big boy (the word is spelled persnickety here in the U.S.) I had no intentions of disagreeing with you at all, Octavius... I rather enjoy your views, though we are probably at odds on particulars.
Since the venerable wizard66 throws out the usual straw man, it's important to the conversation to point out that the concept of a Triune God was never recognized our even conceived of within the Jewish faith, from which Christianity was the completion or fulfillment. It's interesting to note that the S'hma ("Hear O Yisrael... the Lord is your God, the Lord is One) uses Yahweh (our English Jehovah) as the word Lord, which is singular in all useages, but the word translated as God, is again Elohiym, as pointed out previously as being plural...
As you rightly point out, Octavius, the nature of the Christ has been debated for centuries and resulted in not a few heresies...

[Octavius]

Big boy? Are you saying I�m fat?!
And there is nothing odd about my particulars thank you very much!

I think we all more or less agreed (including the Wizz) on the basic premise in the end!

[jake-the-peg]

So what?

The "Royal We" is used in an honorific manner

"We are not amused" etc.

Are you implying that British Monarchs are plural? split personalities (well let's not go there)

Don't you thinkl you may be building a rather big house of cards on whether a term is singular or plural ?

[Clanad]

No, I don't jake and I don't think you would either, considering the linguistic characteristics of Hebrew. Additionally, you'd have a more pertinent point if that were the only basis for the premise, which it's not...

Fat? Never for an Octavius (but, perhaps it's applicable to an Octavious, no?) Actually, I was reverting to my Lone Ranger imitation... Silver and all that.

[jake-the-peg]

The other evidence being the Mathew quote?

That's not very conclusive is it? - you could as easily interpret it as 3 seperate Gods - there's nothing in it implying that they are indivisible.

Personallly I think it's much more likely that this is actuallly a fudge - developed particularly to help get early Jewish converts on board. The anathema towards polytheism needed smoothing out and this was the way it was done.

There's a certain feel of sophistry about a lot of these arguments surrounding plural and singular names of God

[Clanad]

Pot, Kettle...black? jake, I think more resembling a hierophant, than a sophist no? The explanation as I've presented it is in good company, considering the pleiad of scholars I've reviewed who agree it represents an example of cliometrics. Cognizable? Certainly! It's entirely possible your own velleity is peeking from underneath your skirts like Aunt Tillie's slip askew.
Look, this isn't an omphalos and totally undeserving of your contumely. Rather, a simple disagreement don't you think? Besides, it's Spring here in the foothills of the Rockies...