Why there should be a secular state...

[WaldoMcFroog]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7233335 .stm

Rowan Williams = Twunt.

One rule for all, thank you, or else I'm going to start demanding separate atheist-friendly laws.

[keyplus90]

Wizard - I feel sorry for you that after doing all that research and study about religions, at the end you became Athiest, what a waste of time. You could have easily done so without taking all that hastle. Tell me one thing, IF YOUR ARE AN ATHIEST THEN WHAT ARE YOU DOING UNDER THE HEADING OF RELIGION ANY WAY. You should start your own topic "For all who don't know who they are" .Any way tell me which of your question did I avoid, although I might not be as much of book worm as you are (according to you) but I can answer all of your questions one way or another.

[THECORBYLOON]

You may not be aware of this but according to G.E. Howard in his book, A History of Matrimonial Institutions, in 16th century England, child (ages 2-13) marriage may have been "astonishingly" prevalent, so it was going on in Christian England too.

[naomi24]

Keyplus, I understand what you're saying. Some people do make religion look bad. But what are we in the west to think when Islamic terrorists are hating and killing, not only us, but Muslims and everyone else too, in the name of Allah? What sort of loving God is it that condones such actions, and what sort of world are we creating? Can you tell me?

Wizard's right. I'm not a Christian - I think Jesus was simply a man who had some very good ideas, but I wish the whole world, including Christians and Muslims, would follow his basic ideology - to love one another. That is all anyone needs.

If only Muslims, Christians and Jews, would see the sense in opening their eyes to discover the futility of the archaic superstition they call religion, and to deny this horrendously evil God, or Allah, they follow. Religion brings nothing but conflict and destruction - and we have plenty of terrible evidence to prove that.

I don't think for one moment that Wizard doesn't know who he is. He has studied the issues for himself rather than believe what preachers tell him, as most people do, and he has had the courage to say 'no, this I don't believe'. He isn't following the fold, he isn't intimated by medieval threats of damnation - he is truly his own person - and for that, I admire him.

I'm pleased you've joined R&S, Keyplus. At least it gives us the opportunity to debate these issues.

[keyplus90]

Wizard. Before me someone else has answered your last and most important question. So I would put a bit more light on it. You tell me what is the legal age in England for a girl to marry, is it same in Scotland. I don't think so. I am sure it is different in most of the countries. What do you think is right. People who are not allowed to marry in England because they are not old enough so they go to Scotland and do it. So the difference is a thin line called Border or Boundry. As far as Islam is concern it is a natural religion and it goes with when the person is adult physically (puberty). In hot countries people and especially girls get to their puberty earlier than in cold countries. Now if you have studied marriage relationships which I doubt. All over the world the best experts give example of the people you are refering as the ideal married life. That includes non Muslim authors as well. Having said that I am sure there are so many people in this country who have had sex, willingly or frcefully with girls as young as you mentioned. Medical science have so many examples that girls as young as ten gave birth to a child. Now your other questions.
1- What sort of benefits are you talking about, If you are talking about financial benefits then trust me I am paying enough tax to feed ten families on benefits. Although if you are refering to Social benefits, then whatever is better here than my country I appreciate that and if there are loop holes I do about those.
2-Your studies are waste because you did not benefit from that. Its just like going through all the famous clothing shops and in the end you decided to become a Naturist. That is a waste of time isn't it.
3- I think you should not post under because You are mis-guiding people.
4- I can answer your questions because the books you have read although I have not read. But the book I have read you are no way near there.
5- Is the same as 2.

Now you answer my

[keyplus90]

Naomi- You said Muslims are terrorist. What would you say about Hitler or Irish who blasted bombs in England. Better than that, Who have killed more Muslims so far of So called liberators in Iraq & Afghanistan. When an Israeli shoots an 8 year old Palestinian Child playing infront of his home, what is that and what would you do if that was your child. I am not appreciating all this terrorist attacks. Just put it like this that I am sure they are going to the fire of hell as according to Islam killing one innocent person is equal to killing whole humanity. And I do not think anyone has so far appreciated it. But You must admit this WAR on TERRORISM was just financial war for OIL.

[keyplus90]

Wizard- I may not be able to speak like you because English is not my first language. And I may make mistakes as well while typing but I am sure institutionally I am more educated than you are. If the criteria is language at-least I know your language say 80% if not 100 %. But how much do you know mine. Even in that regard I am better than you are. You judge someone the way they write or speak, that shows the depth of your knowledge. As far as finding little girls attractive is concerned,if you can marry and as I have already mentioned Islam believes in puberty and not in 16, 17 or 18 years because as I have already mentioned that in one country legal age is 16 and in the other 18, which one would you say is right. But you would rather have illegal girl friends than legal wives where you will have to fulfil their rights. How many paedophiles have you seen who are Muslims or anyone who believes in any religion? I think they are mostly the people who do not believe in any religion and mainly who do not believe in being answerable either in this world or hereafter. Now who are those people, you do not have to be a rocket scientist to understand that. Now about the liberty of western societies, If you call adultery, homosexuality and all the other ailments of this society as liberty, I would not avail those and other things like that of your so called benefits, does not matter where I am.

[keyplus90]

Last thing Wizard, seems like all the others have deserted us in this debate only because of your stubornness.

[naomi24]

No, I haven't deserted you - I was just formulating an answer, so here goes.

Keyplus, I didn't say 'Muslims are terrorists'. I asked what we in the west are to think of Islamic terrorists, which is very different, and I'm pleased to hear you don't support them. I know all Muslims aren't terrorists.

I understand what you're saying, and the war on terrorism may well be for oil, but the agenda of suicide bombers isn't oil. It's hatred of the west - and a twisted view of Islam.

Personally, I wish ordinary Muslims in this country would have the courage to openly oppose terrorism, but they don't. Why don't they? We see Muslims marching and shouting and demanding apologies for perceived insults, but we never see them marching and shouting to oppose the atrocities the Islamic terrorists perpetuate - even though many innocent Muslims are murdered along with the rest. Additionally, for no religious reason, more and more women seem to be taking to hiding behind the veil, thereby distancing themselves even further from western society - which serves only to encourage even greater suspicion and fear in the rest of the population. What are we to think of this? Are these women trying to integrate into British society? I doubt it very much.

[naomi24]

Atheists don't misguide people - religion misguides people. Atheism is rational - religion is irrational, since there is no evidence whatsoever to verify it - and I find it all so very sad. I truly wish that all people of all religions would recognise that their belief systems cause nothing but chaos in this world. However, as I said before, it's difficult for those indoctrinated to put their beliefs aside. Muslims, like Christians and Jews, are convinced that their religion is the right one - but it's my belief that all religions are wrong. The God of all three supposedly created everything, but in my opinion no loving God would create this mayhem, and until people learn to think for themselves, and put their antiquated belief systems behind them, then mayhem will reign supreme.

How long have you been here in this country, keyplus, and where did you come from?

[keyplus90]

Naomi. you are the kind of person who I think is here for positive talk. First of all as I said no one likes terrorism, but sometimes people who do it they don't have choice. As even Mrs Blair once mentioned this only to be forced to take her words back. You need justice for peace. If only we can eliminate double standards here. Just imagine we all ask Japan for official apology every year for the war crimes by Japanese soldiers against SOLDIERS DURING A WAR. Has anyone ever so far asked Americans for an apology for what they did against CIVILIANS in Hiroshima & Nagasaki. They are the only nations which so far has fired Nukes but they have attacked atleast 4 different countries only because they think that country MIGHT be developing nukes. Only on the basis of assumption. Once an English friend of mine joked with me if I would ever become suicide bomber, I told him that people (not all of them) do not become suicide bomber by choice (majority of them are highly educated people they are not stupid) I asked him if few people come to your home and kick you under open sky and give your home to someone else. Then on regular basis they come and tease you there as well, killing your kids, raping your women, stopping your medicine, food and every thing they possibily could. Still people around you who you look towards for justice. Then you find that they have been provided every weapon by the people who you think should do justice but you only have stones in your hand and they stil brand you terrorist for throwing stones, then what would you do. He said I would kill them even if I had to blow myself to use as a weapon. That is exactly why Palestinians are doing that. I said

[keyplus90]

Now about myself. Originally I am from Pakistan, came to Oxford University for studies in 1991. Fell in love with one English girl (no hanky phanky) married her and settled here. Any thing else?

[keyplus90]

Wizard - I appreciate what ever you say. And I never desired you to agree with me. We are here to give our point of view. Not to force someone. See you later in any other debate. Take care.

[naomi24]

Keyplus, that's a very disappointing answer. You say you don't condone terrorism, and you think that those who commit such atrocities will burn, but at the same time, you don't condemn it as I'd hoped you would. You actually excuse it - but there is no excuse for killing thousands of people who couldn't change the situation if they wanted to. Terrorism is not the way to achieve an aim, but you say they have no choice. The fact is they do have a choice, and they make that choice when the commit their terrible acts. I, like many others, sympathise with the plight of the Palestinian people, and whilst I understand their anger, there are clearly other issues here too. Civilisation seems to be slipping further and further away, Islam is becoming more and more isolated and alienated from the rest of humanity, and it saddens me that someone such as yourself, clearly well educated, married to an English woman, and living in west, does not see the futility of a war that no one can win. If people like you, who have the ability to look at things rationally and sensibly, think like this, I have to wonder what the uneducated and easily influenced think. It's a frightening thought. If I believed in God, I'd say 'God help the world', but I don't, and I'm even more convinced now I've spoken to you that there is no hope.

Incidentally, could you please answer my question about the women who wear veils.