In The Beginning ........

[Theland]

If you are a materialistic secular atheist, then by definition, you believe that everything, that is all matter, energy, space, time and physical laws are contained within the universe.
Therefore, the cause of the universes existence must also be included somewhere in that list.
So, based on the latest from science and your own experiences and opinions, given that you preclude any outside agency, that is, God, as a cause, are you happy to shrug off the question of origin, and simply say, "don't know," or do you have a sensible theory you would be willing to defend?

[Theland]

Self causing? Wow! I would never have enough faith to believe such claptrap.

[naomi24]

And yet you have enough faith to believe in ... magic.

[hereIam]

Theland I like your threads, except when you go all religious ...

[vulcan42]

Tell me what you mean by "outside the universe"

don't forget to answer this Theland.

[naomi24]

//outside the universe// - conjures up visions of someone playing a snowglobe. He gives it a little shake - winter is upon us - he gives it a bigger shake, crikey! An earthquake! Just musing. :o)

[jim360]

You have, I assume, heard of the Argument from First Cause? This dictates that the Universe needs a cause, and that cause is supposed to be God. Except, of course, that God then needs a cause, and so on and so forth... The resolution to this is, usually, to suppose that God itself is a self-causing cause, and thus the chain is broken.

All I am saying is that there's no reason not to stop one step earlier, and hold that the Universe is capable of creating itself. Since the Uncertainty Principle, coupled with other theories, provides a context in which that can occur, then it's not even unreasonable.

It's a bold step to call it "claptrap", considering that the philosophy, at least, has been offered up by Aristotle, Parmenides, Thomas Aquinas, Leibniz, etc. etc. None of them thought to stop one step earlier, but never mind.

[Theland]

If you are looking for a cause from physics, forget it.
No law within this universe, acting on what?
Nothing? Come on! You like logic? Then logic that one out.
But, there is a non physical dimension that is eternal, and that is God.
Of course you will never understand this unless you are prepared to at least consider the flaws so well documented in current science. Go on! Investigate while there is nothing on the telly!

[jim360]

I love the idea that you think it's worth telling me to "investigate" science in my spare time.

I don't think you know nearly enough about physics to be so dismissive of it

[Theland]

Oh you are so right. I know little of physics.
But I do have a smidgen of common sense.
So what acted on what and by what means to create the universe?
Bearing in mind that all three, "whats", did not exist.
Sounds like a long popcorn lecture coming up!

[1ozzy]

//So what acted on what and by what means to create the universe?
Bearing in mind that all three, "whats", did not exist. //

Maybe a God should be referred to as a "what".

I've a box of popcorn ready ;-/

[Theland]

Hey ozzy - me too. Just waiting for the lecturer to turn up.

[1ozzy]

Hi Theland, hope you are keeping well.

I thought there would be two lecturers on this thread.

Looking forward to both ;-)

[Theland]

By the way ozzy, is the violence from Somali and Ethiopian gangs as bad in Oz as depicted on YouTube?
City after city terrorised?

[Theland]

Not bad actually. Still off the beer, diet going well, new medications doing the trick so far.

[waterboatman]

Read Terry Pratchett's Discworld books. They'll tell you all about it!

[Theland]

On my bucket list Boaty.

[1ozzy]

Definitely not.
Minimal violence in Oz compared to many other countries.
Yes we do have minor outbursts from immigrants but as a whole Oz is multicultural and seems to potter along quite nicely.

Middle Eastern gang warfare is/was a hiccup in our otherwise peaceful country. Funnily enough it was the offspring of the immigrants that were born in Oz that created the problem.

A few disgruntled people, a few white supremacists.

Minor problems ;-)

[waterboatman]

They are well worth the read TL. I've read them quite a few times and they still make me laugh out loud. :o}

[Theland]

Must do that soon Boaty. Cheers.

[waterboatman]

You'll love them TL. ;o}