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Are Atheists Unsure And Worried?
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According to some of the religious people here, the reason atheists argue religion is because they ‘are not sure and are a bit worried’ (Keyplus’ words). Religion is an option available to all – atheists choose to reject it. What then, do those who say this think we are unsure or worried about? The question has been asked several times on different threads, but as far as I’m aware, no one has given their reasons for thinking that. Can someone please explain?
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Naimi to keyplus //Additionally, perhaps you can answer a very simple question that Lightbulb has failed to respond to completely. The Koran instructs men to beat their disobedient wives. Is that wrong? //
Well that is keyplus's cue to run. He won't answer that. He never does because he can't twist the words of the Qur'an to arrive at some lame "contextual" justification.
Well that is keyplus's cue to run. He won't answer that. He never does because he can't twist the words of the Qur'an to arrive at some lame "contextual" justification.
LG; I think jomifl has given you the link. May I ask if you believe there is any meaning to the universe?
The reference within the link is that the other day I happened to be proceeding down a corridor in the wake of an atheist, and I swear (to God!) when I listened carefully, I could hear the cheeks of his arse squeaking together as he walked. This lead me to conclude (in reference to the OP) that he was 'unsure and worried' though he may have had domestic problems.
The reference within the link is that the other day I happened to be proceeding down a corridor in the wake of an atheist, and I swear (to God!) when I listened carefully, I could hear the cheeks of his arse squeaking together as he walked. This lead me to conclude (in reference to the OP) that he was 'unsure and worried' though he may have had domestic problems.
Beso, I think the koran forbids beating fellow muslims so wives cannot qualify as muslims unless they are the wife of an enemy that he has killed. The problem that worries all muslims subsonciously is that they all break the koranic code on a regar basis, unfortunately these sins cannot be put right by a few hail marys so they carry around an accumulating burden of guilt whilst claiming to be 'holier than thou'.
Octavious - "To you be your Way, and to me mine." Had nothing to do with saving themselves from slaughter. First of all how someone would not slaughter you once you say to them what was said in that chapter I mentioned? I think people (opposition) would be more fumed after that.
Actually what you said that was the case after this chapter was revealed and not before that. The reason behind this chapter was that at the time the unbelievers (in Mecca) tried so many things to stop Muhammad (pbuh) from spreading the word of Islam and talking against their so many deities as their day to day business depended on all that. So they offered a choice to Muhammad (pbuh) that why not you (and your handful followers at that time) worship our gods for one year and then we will worship your God for one year. And as a result of that this chapter was revealed and yes after that they become hostile towards less able (poor) followers of Muhammad (pbuh) and then for that reason they migrated from Mecca.
OK, question about Quran asking to beat the wife has been asked and dealt with so many times. It is a typical example how few people quote things out of context. First of all Quran does not say that you must beat your wife five times a day whenever you stand for your prayer. It is one of the long processes a couple are supposed to go through before they could have a divorce or walk away from each other. Because Divorce is considered the most disliked action out of those that are allowed for a very good reason because it breaks families because in Islam marriage is not only between two people but a relationship between two families. And then it destroys life of the children involved and we all know that as we read day in day out about children in broken families. So this thing about beating your wife is a myth and in fact is a way of showing your displeasure and last resort so that couple should be able to talk through their problems and come up with a solution. Otherwise for Muslims its enough to know from a hadith from the life of the Prophet (pbuh) when someone asked his the clarify this and he said it is like hitting someone with a twig, Miswak or a toothbrush in modern time. Now if someone brushes his teeth with a Samurai sword then I would be worried about that. Finally I know that my explanation would not do anything for few people who pick one or two verses from all of the Quran and Hadith out of context and ignore so many where in very simple words it has been said that “among you the best people are who are better for their wives”. Or a verse from Quran where Allah says that wife and husband are Libaas (translated as clothing) for each other. That is such a nice and perfect way of explaining a relation between wife and husband. Because if one think about it then what does clothing do? It makes you look good, it makes you feel good, it saves you from hardships of the weather, and most importantly it covers you up. But unfortunately if someone just wants to pick bones then no one can do anything about that.
Finally, Beso must make a record of this that I have given an answer. But I am sure it would not make any difference to anyone. However if there are more questions then feel free to put another thread as there would be nothing more on this thread from me as this has nothing to do with these questions. Now take it as your win or whatever. Because my main objective is to try clear misconceptions and not scoring points.
Actually what you said that was the case after this chapter was revealed and not before that. The reason behind this chapter was that at the time the unbelievers (in Mecca) tried so many things to stop Muhammad (pbuh) from spreading the word of Islam and talking against their so many deities as their day to day business depended on all that. So they offered a choice to Muhammad (pbuh) that why not you (and your handful followers at that time) worship our gods for one year and then we will worship your God for one year. And as a result of that this chapter was revealed and yes after that they become hostile towards less able (poor) followers of Muhammad (pbuh) and then for that reason they migrated from Mecca.
OK, question about Quran asking to beat the wife has been asked and dealt with so many times. It is a typical example how few people quote things out of context. First of all Quran does not say that you must beat your wife five times a day whenever you stand for your prayer. It is one of the long processes a couple are supposed to go through before they could have a divorce or walk away from each other. Because Divorce is considered the most disliked action out of those that are allowed for a very good reason because it breaks families because in Islam marriage is not only between two people but a relationship between two families. And then it destroys life of the children involved and we all know that as we read day in day out about children in broken families. So this thing about beating your wife is a myth and in fact is a way of showing your displeasure and last resort so that couple should be able to talk through their problems and come up with a solution. Otherwise for Muslims its enough to know from a hadith from the life of the Prophet (pbuh) when someone asked his the clarify this and he said it is like hitting someone with a twig, Miswak or a toothbrush in modern time. Now if someone brushes his teeth with a Samurai sword then I would be worried about that. Finally I know that my explanation would not do anything for few people who pick one or two verses from all of the Quran and Hadith out of context and ignore so many where in very simple words it has been said that “among you the best people are who are better for their wives”. Or a verse from Quran where Allah says that wife and husband are Libaas (translated as clothing) for each other. That is such a nice and perfect way of explaining a relation between wife and husband. Because if one think about it then what does clothing do? It makes you look good, it makes you feel good, it saves you from hardships of the weather, and most importantly it covers you up. But unfortunately if someone just wants to pick bones then no one can do anything about that.
Finally, Beso must make a record of this that I have given an answer. But I am sure it would not make any difference to anyone. However if there are more questions then feel free to put another thread as there would be nothing more on this thread from me as this has nothing to do with these questions. Now take it as your win or whatever. Because my main objective is to try clear misconceptions and not scoring points.
One can be forgiven for taking things out of context, since that is what many muslim followers of Islam do on a daily basis. I presume your base argument is one of 'light beatings' as translated in the Qu'ran, since you mention twigs or toothbrushes.... anyway, the purpose of these 'light beatings' in Islam is to exert dominance and enforce obedience in their women. A light beating (one not leading to blood spilling or death) one day should lead to obedience thereafter. If it doesn't then full on heavy beating is likely to be inflicted until submission, obedience or death.
No word play, context or twisting required. There is a debate on youtube where a Islamic representative states exactly what I have said in defense of the Qu'rans instructions. You cannot defend nor excuse that.
No word play, context or twisting required. There is a debate on youtube where a Islamic representative states exactly what I have said in defense of the Qu'rans instructions. You cannot defend nor excuse that.
jomifl; We really have not much right to feel smug on this issue, corporal punishment in schools was only banned 20 years ago and a reference to more severe wife-beating common in Britain is found in in a book by Harriet H. Robinson: Massachusetts in the Woman Suffrage Movement.1881, She says there, "By the English common law, her husband was her lord and master. He had the custody of her person, and of her minor children. He could 'punish her with a stick no bigger than his thumb,' and she could not complain against him."
I don't expect beatings are any more common in educated Muslim families than they are within the general educated population really.
I don't expect beatings are any more common in educated Muslim families than they are within the general educated population really.
Keyplus, again I will say you are disingenuous. As far as I'm aware, The Koran does not advise men to beat their wives five times a day – but it most certainly advises men to beat their disobedient wives – and no one has taken anything out of context. As for Mohammed and his ‘toothbrush’, firstly beating anyone with anything is unacceptable. Furthermore, a toothbrush was not what he used to beat his wives. This from Aisha, reputedly, his favourite wife ….. “He struck me on the chest which caused me pain…” – and if you want me to produce it, there’s plenty more in your literature about the acceptability of men bullying women.
As for the inhabitants of Mecca trying to stop Mohammed spreading the word of Islam – indeed they did – so much so that Mohammed tried to tempt them by including the Satanic Verses in the Koran – which referred to other deities - and which were later removed as a cause of great embarrassment. Don’t try to pull the wool over people’s eyes, Keyplus. The Koran and the rest of your literature in printed in English now and available to anyone who wants to read it – and people are not the fools you hope they are.
I note you ignored my other question about the Muslim compatibility quiz. I actually did this quiz myself, just to see what the answers would say about question 10, which is not actually a question. Nevertheless this is the 'question'. "Be the change you want to see in the world." I ticked the option ‘Strongly agree’, and the answer referred me to a Koranic verse:
...surely God does not change the condition of a people until they change their own condition... [13:11]
I tried it again, but this time ticking the option ‘Strongly disagree’, with the same result, and so it would seem that this quote from Gandhi has been hi-jacked to encourage Muslims to change the world. Am I wrong in that assumption?
As for the inhabitants of Mecca trying to stop Mohammed spreading the word of Islam – indeed they did – so much so that Mohammed tried to tempt them by including the Satanic Verses in the Koran – which referred to other deities - and which were later removed as a cause of great embarrassment. Don’t try to pull the wool over people’s eyes, Keyplus. The Koran and the rest of your literature in printed in English now and available to anyone who wants to read it – and people are not the fools you hope they are.
I note you ignored my other question about the Muslim compatibility quiz. I actually did this quiz myself, just to see what the answers would say about question 10, which is not actually a question. Nevertheless this is the 'question'. "Be the change you want to see in the world." I ticked the option ‘Strongly agree’, and the answer referred me to a Koranic verse:
...surely God does not change the condition of a people until they change their own condition... [13:11]
I tried it again, but this time ticking the option ‘Strongly disagree’, with the same result, and so it would seem that this quote from Gandhi has been hi-jacked to encourage Muslims to change the world. Am I wrong in that assumption?
Khandro, //I don't expect beatings are any more common in educated Muslim families than they are within the general educated population really.//
Oh, well I suppose that's alright then! Not only are you making excuses for religion - again - you are overlooking the unsavoury fact that the infallible word of the Koran directly advises wife beating - and hence Islam condones it.
Oh, well I suppose that's alright then! Not only are you making excuses for religion - again - you are overlooking the unsavoury fact that the infallible word of the Koran directly advises wife beating - and hence Islam condones it.
@ Khandro - I think you might need to rethink your approach to levity a bit - It does not appear to be working.
As an atheist, I have become accustomed to the religious and the religious apologists insisting that the atheism is a pathway to a meaningless or empty/ hollow existence, devoid of purpose; that somehow not accepting a proposition that life and the universe has a sense of Purpose with a capital P, imbued by a god/ supernatural entity/divine spark ( delete as appropriate).
I suppose the superior smugness with which the religious apologists sorrowfully survey their benighted atheist acquintances can be summarised in one sentence " Oh, you poor thing! Your lives must be so empty and hollow!". Still, I suppose it is only fair since most atheists view those with faith as irrational on this issue.
No, Khandro - I do not believe the Universe, or Life, has been imbued with Meaning or Purpose from an external agency.
But everyones life has meaning and purpose (without a capital P) - Its just that this comes from the individual entity.
As an atheist, I have become accustomed to the religious and the religious apologists insisting that the atheism is a pathway to a meaningless or empty/ hollow existence, devoid of purpose; that somehow not accepting a proposition that life and the universe has a sense of Purpose with a capital P, imbued by a god/ supernatural entity/divine spark ( delete as appropriate).
I suppose the superior smugness with which the religious apologists sorrowfully survey their benighted atheist acquintances can be summarised in one sentence " Oh, you poor thing! Your lives must be so empty and hollow!". Still, I suppose it is only fair since most atheists view those with faith as irrational on this issue.
No, Khandro - I do not believe the Universe, or Life, has been imbued with Meaning or Purpose from an external agency.
But everyones life has meaning and purpose (without a capital P) - Its just that this comes from the individual entity.
"everyones life has meaning and purpose" Does it? What if it was a just a brief existence with no purpose and meaning, we are just a chance birth/life in the endless cycle of the universe. We come, we go.
We give life meaning through our own actions and inner creativity don't we? We invent a purpose for ourselves and aim to carry it through.
We give life meaning through our own actions and inner creativity don't we? We invent a purpose for ourselves and aim to carry it through.
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