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What is it about atheists that they would spend so much time, attention, and energy refuting something that they don't believe exists?
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Jake, There is a huge difference between what Beckersjay calls ‘spiritual belief’ and what I call ‘spirituality’. Whereas ‘spiritual belief’ depends upon faith in things like crystals – or gods - for which there is no empirical evidence, spirituality does not. That can emanate from a perceived bond with nature, or from love, or from awe, or from overwhelming emotion ……or whatever an individual feels connected to or perhaps at peace with. One doesn’t need 'belief' in anything in particular to experience spirituality.
cupid04
What is it about atheists that they would spend so much time, attention, and energy refuting something that they don't believe exists?
20:49 Wed 20th Feb 2013
The problem is that 'it' does exist, albeit only as a belief. Beliefs ultimately have consequences and those beliefs that are not rooted in reality have potentially dangerous and destructive consequences, not only for the believer but for those with whom the interact as well. Beliefs, whether they be arbitrary or rooted in reality, orchestrate ones choices, actions and their consequences. On a very basic level, nothing defines us as individuals any more than what we choose to believe . . . and why. What you believe should never be taken lightly, no less so than when what you believe might well be wrong.
What is it about atheists that they would spend so much time, attention, and energy refuting something that they don't believe exists?
20:49 Wed 20th Feb 2013
The problem is that 'it' does exist, albeit only as a belief. Beliefs ultimately have consequences and those beliefs that are not rooted in reality have potentially dangerous and destructive consequences, not only for the believer but for those with whom the interact as well. Beliefs, whether they be arbitrary or rooted in reality, orchestrate ones choices, actions and their consequences. On a very basic level, nothing defines us as individuals any more than what we choose to believe . . . and why. What you believe should never be taken lightly, no less so than when what you believe might well be wrong.
Naomi24: 'You’re very much mistaken, but may I point out that until now, as far as I am aware, you haven’t mentioned that distinction. In my experience you consistently disparage atheists, this time labelling them a ‘vociferous and aggressive group’.
I think I have mentioned this distinction on more than one occasion, when pointing out that I do not adhere to any organised religion. If I have ever given the impression that I support any religion 'at any cost', it says more about my communication skills than my intentions.
I do not constantly disparage atheists though I have a problem with the lack of respect and constantly aggressive tone adopted by some of the atheists who regularly post on this site. I try to treat other people - and their beliefs - with respect, however much I may disagree with them. If I have caused offence by any of my comments, it was inadvertent and I apologise unreservedly.
By the way, Naomi, we do have one point of full agreement and that is about the annoying popups infesting this site recently.
I think I have mentioned this distinction on more than one occasion, when pointing out that I do not adhere to any organised religion. If I have ever given the impression that I support any religion 'at any cost', it says more about my communication skills than my intentions.
I do not constantly disparage atheists though I have a problem with the lack of respect and constantly aggressive tone adopted by some of the atheists who regularly post on this site. I try to treat other people - and their beliefs - with respect, however much I may disagree with them. If I have caused offence by any of my comments, it was inadvertent and I apologise unreservedly.
By the way, Naomi, we do have one point of full agreement and that is about the annoying popups infesting this site recently.
Beckersjay, //I do not constantly disparage atheists//
Well, your posts certainly come across that way and we do seem to have a number of people who bristle at the slightest criticism of religion. Thank you for the apology though.
Yes - the ad that was supposed to have been disposed of has just popped up again.
Well, your posts certainly come across that way and we do seem to have a number of people who bristle at the slightest criticism of religion. Thank you for the apology though.
Yes - the ad that was supposed to have been disposed of has just popped up again.
//I try to treat other people - and their beliefs - with respect, however much I may disagree with them.//
I’d like to pick up on that. I find it impossible to understand why anyone maintains respect for beliefs that encourage (or overlook) the harm that religion does, or for the people who hold those beliefs. Perhaps someone would care to explain that to me, because personally I see nothing commendable in such unprincipled values, and hence I see no reason why either the doctrine or the people who cannot think beyond it warrant respect.
Despite a clearly continuing expectation, the days when religion with all it’s cruelty could demand respect - and get it - are long gone – and amen to that!
I’d like to pick up on that. I find it impossible to understand why anyone maintains respect for beliefs that encourage (or overlook) the harm that religion does, or for the people who hold those beliefs. Perhaps someone would care to explain that to me, because personally I see nothing commendable in such unprincipled values, and hence I see no reason why either the doctrine or the people who cannot think beyond it warrant respect.
Despite a clearly continuing expectation, the days when religion with all it’s cruelty could demand respect - and get it - are long gone – and amen to that!
It depends what you mean by respect beckersjay. I'm pretty sure no-one here would dream of going into a mosque without taking their shoes off and doing whatever else is required. Neither would they stand up at Christian burial and shout 'This is all nonsense. There's no heaven - he's just dead!'.
However, this is a debating forum so you're going to get honest opinions being stated. Besides which, Naomi is right - if something's not deserving of respect then it shouldn't automatically expect it or indeed demand it.
However, this is a debating forum so you're going to get honest opinions being stated. Besides which, Naomi is right - if something's not deserving of respect then it shouldn't automatically expect it or indeed demand it.
As usual naomi has put very lucidly the serious reasons why rational people need to concern themselves with theists, if only to keep an eye on them.
For my part I am always fascinated by any weird whims of the human mind. I remain bewildered as to how people endowed by evolution with intellects as big as we humans have are happy to waste them on believing in ancient superstitions, and rather silly ones at that.
After all, if David Attenborough can study creatures quite different from himself, why shouldn't I?
For my part I am always fascinated by any weird whims of the human mind. I remain bewildered as to how people endowed by evolution with intellects as big as we humans have are happy to waste them on believing in ancient superstitions, and rather silly ones at that.
After all, if David Attenborough can study creatures quite different from himself, why shouldn't I?
the people claiming religion doesnt affect their lives at all are exactly the problem - the fact that they actually believe that.
our whole society is run with an underlying religious tone and its so ingrained in us and our psyche that many dont even realise its there - its just 'normal' - and it shouldnt be.
even people who are not religious at all do lots of religious things because they are ''normal'' - they christen their kids, get married, have funeral services, get engaged, read hymns in school and church, do RE lessons, swear on the bible in court, have xmas, easter, lent, hot cross buns, sing carols, amongst lots of other stuff ...
most of us blaspheme, and use religious phrases and sayings all the time - yet seem unaware where it came from.
there are symbols of it all over the place, on our money etc
and then there us all the stuff about sin, and 10 commandments, and guilt and hell and sex before marriage etc etc - these things have instilled powerful emotions and prejudices and ways in us -whether we like it - or even acknowledge it or not.
it has become 'normal', and 'just the way it is'
it gives some people deep seated neurosis, that we are not worthy, that we are sinners, it tries to make us feel guilty ALL THE TIME just for enjoying ourselves, and tells us natural bodily functions are wrong and bad ...
i mean it can go to stupid extremes - victorians were afraid of table legs being too 'sexy'!
ad that is all just the more obvious stuff - it goes depper - and all that is also quite aside from all the actual incidents and atrocites committed by religious fundamentalists of all religions... and also ordinary people who are just devout.
so to say it doesnt affect you just because you are not an actively religious person is ridiculous and naive.
it is EVERYWHERE, and in EVERYTHING ...
and its time it wasnt.
our whole society is run with an underlying religious tone and its so ingrained in us and our psyche that many dont even realise its there - its just 'normal' - and it shouldnt be.
even people who are not religious at all do lots of religious things because they are ''normal'' - they christen their kids, get married, have funeral services, get engaged, read hymns in school and church, do RE lessons, swear on the bible in court, have xmas, easter, lent, hot cross buns, sing carols, amongst lots of other stuff ...
most of us blaspheme, and use religious phrases and sayings all the time - yet seem unaware where it came from.
there are symbols of it all over the place, on our money etc
and then there us all the stuff about sin, and 10 commandments, and guilt and hell and sex before marriage etc etc - these things have instilled powerful emotions and prejudices and ways in us -whether we like it - or even acknowledge it or not.
it has become 'normal', and 'just the way it is'
it gives some people deep seated neurosis, that we are not worthy, that we are sinners, it tries to make us feel guilty ALL THE TIME just for enjoying ourselves, and tells us natural bodily functions are wrong and bad ...
i mean it can go to stupid extremes - victorians were afraid of table legs being too 'sexy'!
ad that is all just the more obvious stuff - it goes depper - and all that is also quite aside from all the actual incidents and atrocites committed by religious fundamentalists of all religions... and also ordinary people who are just devout.
so to say it doesnt affect you just because you are not an actively religious person is ridiculous and naive.
it is EVERYWHERE, and in EVERYTHING ...
and its time it wasnt.
//I’d like to pick up on that. I find it impossible to understand why anyone maintains respect for beliefs that encourage (or overlook) the harm that religion does, or for the people who hold those beliefs. //
First, I believe it is possible to respect people and treat them with courtesy, while challenging their beliefs. Second, I always try to remember that I am not perfect and all-knowing and that I might even be wrong.........
First, I believe it is possible to respect people and treat them with courtesy, while challenging their beliefs. Second, I always try to remember that I am not perfect and all-knowing and that I might even be wrong.........
Beckersjay, But you don't challenge their beliefs at all! That's just the point. Regardless of the misery those beliefs cause, you, like the rest of the religious, turn a blind eye to the bad and attempt to negate it by claiming that religion is responsible for good things too. That isn't respect - it's denial. If I'm wrong I'm happy to say I'm wrong, but when religion is wholly responsible for the appalling human suffering - and more - that I outlined earlier, I don't believe I am wrong to challenge it - and to challenge it robustly. Do you?
By the way, you still haven't told me what you think atheists are afraid of.
By the way, you still haven't told me what you think atheists are afraid of.
its ridiculous to say atheists are atheists because they are afraid!
of what?
grasping a straws and desperation there, especially when its so clearly the other way round - we are not the ones running our lives under a fundamental fear of angering god or going to hell.
in fact the religious are often proud to declare themselves "good, god fearing folk"
it is not a good life if it must be lived in fear...
of what?
grasping a straws and desperation there, especially when its so clearly the other way round - we are not the ones running our lives under a fundamental fear of angering god or going to hell.
in fact the religious are often proud to declare themselves "good, god fearing folk"
it is not a good life if it must be lived in fear...
Many have hypothesised that the reason for the belief of many- either a part of an organised religion, or who just believe in an afterlife, or a spirit world or what have you-is basically a fear of death, of a terminal end. A fear that they will never meet up with loved ones again.
So I do not think atheists are motivated by fear. But at least some atheists have reason to fear for there life, as this current story demonstrates;
http://
Yet another instance where religious belief results in barbarism....
So I do not think atheists are motivated by fear. But at least some atheists have reason to fear for there life, as this current story demonstrates;
http://
Yet another instance where religious belief results in barbarism....
Naomi et al : re fear, I don't think any of you bothered to read my earlier post properly so I'll reproduce it here: 'As to my comment about fear, it was merely based on experience of human nature - and in my experience, people who have 'kneejerk' agressive reactions to certain stimuli are often reliving something in their past that has caused them fear - fear of what is for them alone to know. ' You may note that it was not a comment about atheists at all but about general human behaviour.
Naomi - surely you cannot really believe that religion is solely responsible for all the evils you describe, that other factors are not responsible for even worse evils or that religion is not also responsible for many good things. Many of the evils you refer to have nothing to do with religion and everything to do with culture, power and self-interest, though religion may be used as a convenient excuse.
Third, I have not tended to challenge beliefs on these threads because the religious ar so often standing alone against a barrage of personal abuse and, as an English person, I naturally support the underdog.
Fourth, I genuinely believe that there are people who would like to use this site for discussion and exchange of ideas about religion and /or spirituality but who have been discouraged from doing so by the knowledge that they will nerely be shot down in flames. You often accuse theists of trying to impose their views but in my view this is very much the case of the pot calling the kettle black.
Naomi - surely you cannot really believe that religion is solely responsible for all the evils you describe, that other factors are not responsible for even worse evils or that religion is not also responsible for many good things. Many of the evils you refer to have nothing to do with religion and everything to do with culture, power and self-interest, though religion may be used as a convenient excuse.
Third, I have not tended to challenge beliefs on these threads because the religious ar so often standing alone against a barrage of personal abuse and, as an English person, I naturally support the underdog.
Fourth, I genuinely believe that there are people who would like to use this site for discussion and exchange of ideas about religion and /or spirituality but who have been discouraged from doing so by the knowledge that they will nerely be shot down in flames. You often accuse theists of trying to impose their views but in my view this is very much the case of the pot calling the kettle black.
regarding your supposed reasoning behind using the word fear - it being based on simple human nature - you make one big glaring error here with atheists, and it just highlights your lack of understanding on the subject.
none of this is 'kneejerk' at all - they are well thought out, logical, reasoned and realistic considerations.
there is nothing kneejerk about it.
in fact it is the religious who are know for their pitch fork and lynch mob mentality
you seem to be implying we are all sitting here freaking out at the notion of religion ...when actually it is us that has put more thorough thought into - since what we believe has been arrived at through independant thought - what you blindly believe is what you read in a book...
none of this is 'kneejerk' at all - they are well thought out, logical, reasoned and realistic considerations.
there is nothing kneejerk about it.
in fact it is the religious who are know for their pitch fork and lynch mob mentality
you seem to be implying we are all sitting here freaking out at the notion of religion ...when actually it is us that has put more thorough thought into - since what we believe has been arrived at through independant thought - what you blindly believe is what you read in a book...
Arksided, //athismn exists because they can't believe how stupid we all are,// [sic]
You aren't far short of the mark.
// I believe in god but not a religion.// so which particular God out of the thousands available do you believe in and how did you come to conclusion that that was the "real God" to warrant your belief in him/her?
You aren't far short of the mark.
// I believe in god but not a religion.// so which particular God out of the thousands available do you believe in and how did you come to conclusion that that was the "real God" to warrant your belief in him/her?
Beckersjay, ‘fear’ – your explanation doesn’t accord with your initial post where you suggested that this ‘small, vociferous and aggressive group’ is motivated by fear. You weren’t referring to human nature – you were referring to AB atheists specifically. Incidentally, Joko is right. There’s very little ‘kneejerk’ about the arguments here. They’re usually very well researched.
// Naomi - surely you cannot really believe that religion is solely responsible for all the evils you describe, //
Yes, I can – and I do. I have no doubt about it whatsoever.
//that other factors are not responsible for even worse evils//
Irrelevant. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
// that religion is not also responsible for many good things.//
I’m not disputing that, but it doesn’t negate the bad.
//Many of the evils you refer to have nothing to do with religion and everything to do with culture, power and self-interest, though religion may be used as a convenient excuse.//
Ah, we reach the crux (no pun intended) of the matter. As always, religion isn’t responsible for any of it, even though religion has everything to do with culture, and power, and self-interest. What a ‘convenient excuse’. Why don’t you tell me why people don’t use condoms to prevent babies being born diseased, or why women spend their lives shrouded and subjugated, or why it is deemed acceptable in some societies for little girls to be horribly mutilated and married off to grown men, or why children - in this country as well as elsewhere - are taught that the mountains were created to peg down the earth, and that the stars made to ward off demons? Tell me why religion isn’t directly responsible for all of that – and more? How easy it is for western ‘defenders of faith’ to forget that not all religion is the comfy, cosy, ‘gentle Jesus meek a mild’ version that they, themselves have chosen and wallow in – and how sad that in their robust defence of all religion, otherwise rational people fail to recognise that they are, in fact, instrumental in vindicating the perpetuation of practices and beliefs that have no place in any civilised society.
//I genuinely believe that there are people who would like to use this site for discussion and exchange of ideas about religion and /or spirituality but who have been discouraged from doing so by the knowledge that they will nerely be shot down in flames.//
Once again the victim mentality rears its head. The fact is if your argument is so weak that it cannot withstand rational scrutiny, you can hardly blame others – or expect them to shut up just to placate you. Having said that those who wish to hold a discussion without intrusion from people who disagree with them do have the option of chatting among themselves and ignoring posts from those they don’t wish to include. Just an idea. It happens elsewhere in AB all the time, so why not here in R&S?
//You often accuse theists of trying to impose their views but in my view this is very much the case of the pot calling the kettle black.//
How so? If religion didn’t impose its abhorrent doctrine upon everyone else, there would be nothing to contest.
No word from the OP. After all this effort and explanation, a word of acknowledgement – or even thanks - would be courteous. Perhaps she didn’t really want to know. ;o)
// Naomi - surely you cannot really believe that religion is solely responsible for all the evils you describe, //
Yes, I can – and I do. I have no doubt about it whatsoever.
//that other factors are not responsible for even worse evils//
Irrelevant. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
// that religion is not also responsible for many good things.//
I’m not disputing that, but it doesn’t negate the bad.
//Many of the evils you refer to have nothing to do with religion and everything to do with culture, power and self-interest, though religion may be used as a convenient excuse.//
Ah, we reach the crux (no pun intended) of the matter. As always, religion isn’t responsible for any of it, even though religion has everything to do with culture, and power, and self-interest. What a ‘convenient excuse’. Why don’t you tell me why people don’t use condoms to prevent babies being born diseased, or why women spend their lives shrouded and subjugated, or why it is deemed acceptable in some societies for little girls to be horribly mutilated and married off to grown men, or why children - in this country as well as elsewhere - are taught that the mountains were created to peg down the earth, and that the stars made to ward off demons? Tell me why religion isn’t directly responsible for all of that – and more? How easy it is for western ‘defenders of faith’ to forget that not all religion is the comfy, cosy, ‘gentle Jesus meek a mild’ version that they, themselves have chosen and wallow in – and how sad that in their robust defence of all religion, otherwise rational people fail to recognise that they are, in fact, instrumental in vindicating the perpetuation of practices and beliefs that have no place in any civilised society.
//I genuinely believe that there are people who would like to use this site for discussion and exchange of ideas about religion and /or spirituality but who have been discouraged from doing so by the knowledge that they will nerely be shot down in flames.//
Once again the victim mentality rears its head. The fact is if your argument is so weak that it cannot withstand rational scrutiny, you can hardly blame others – or expect them to shut up just to placate you. Having said that those who wish to hold a discussion without intrusion from people who disagree with them do have the option of chatting among themselves and ignoring posts from those they don’t wish to include. Just an idea. It happens elsewhere in AB all the time, so why not here in R&S?
//You often accuse theists of trying to impose their views but in my view this is very much the case of the pot calling the kettle black.//
How so? If religion didn’t impose its abhorrent doctrine upon everyone else, there would be nothing to contest.
No word from the OP. After all this effort and explanation, a word of acknowledgement – or even thanks - would be courteous. Perhaps she didn’t really want to know. ;o)
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