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Are you hoping to become a ‘Death Cheater’?
72 Answers
Reading posts from the religious here, I’ve concluded that the sole reason people cling to faith is because they fear death – and that faith creates unhealthy neurosis. Some have confessed that faced with the undeniable realities of religion, they have succumbed to actual physical malady, manifesting in uncontrollable shaking and weeping, which by any stretch of the imagination surely cannot be beneficial to either body or spirit; others are terrified to speak their mind for fear of ‘divine’ reprisal, and still more harbour what I consider to be a consistent and thoroughly unhealthy obsession with thoughts of sin, death, and eternal punishment. Through these pages, due to my absence of faith, I have recently been accused of possessing a ‘bleak outlook’, but is my outlook ‘bleak’ or is it simply ‘realistic’? I have strong moral principles, I care passionately about the welfare of my fellow man, I have a wonderfully loving family, a lovely home, many good friends, I am successful in my chosen profession, I’m not short of money, I’m healthy and happy – so bleakness has no place in my life. However, I fully accept that when my body is past its sell-by date, I will die. I don’t relish the thought of any pain or distress that might accompany that process, but when that is over and I’m dead, I won’t know anything about it, so in death itself, I have nothing to fear. Love is the most important thing in this world – and death is simply a reality of life. What’s wrong with that?
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mibn2cweus
Understanding that death is part of the bargain of having lived helps me to put the value of living in perspective. What I would regret most at my time of dying would be knowing that I intentionally cheated someone else from realising their full potential for achieving happiness in the one opportunity we are given to do so by having robbed them of the reality of life's value through deception. Appreciation for and achieving what is possible within reality is what makes life worth living and ultimately . . . worth dying for.
15:07 Mon 08th Oct 2012
Octavius
Maybe unwavering faith is the pinnacle of that particular persons life. Who are you to judge them or deny them?
15:15 Mon 08th Oct 2012
Octavius
Ladybirder, my post you quote was to mibn2cweus.
With your post above that I agree entirely.
17:14 Mon 08th Oct 2012
Erm . . . who's judging whom? :o/
If someone chooses to delude their self, that's their business so long as they keep their delusions to their self and not insist on another's affirmation. But since you've asked . . .
Extolling belief and faith as viable alternatives to knowledge and reason is precisely the sanction one seeks for abnegating the responsibility and obligation we all have, if not to others then to ourselves, to learn and to think. There is no honest affirmation to be attained from aspiring to reach the pinnacle of one's own self-deception.
Understanding that death is part of the bargain of having lived helps me to put the value of living in perspective. What I would regret most at my time of dying would be knowing that I intentionally cheated someone else from realising their full potential for achieving happiness in the one opportunity we are given to do so by having robbed them of the reality of life's value through deception. Appreciation for and achieving what is possible within reality is what makes life worth living and ultimately . . . worth dying for.
15:07 Mon 08th Oct 2012
Octavius
Maybe unwavering faith is the pinnacle of that particular persons life. Who are you to judge them or deny them?
15:15 Mon 08th Oct 2012
Octavius
Ladybirder, my post you quote was to mibn2cweus.
With your post above that I agree entirely.
17:14 Mon 08th Oct 2012
Erm . . . who's judging whom? :o/
If someone chooses to delude their self, that's their business so long as they keep their delusions to their self and not insist on another's affirmation. But since you've asked . . .
Extolling belief and faith as viable alternatives to knowledge and reason is precisely the sanction one seeks for abnegating the responsibility and obligation we all have, if not to others then to ourselves, to learn and to think. There is no honest affirmation to be attained from aspiring to reach the pinnacle of one's own self-deception.
Naomi
Obviously you have no imagination. Let us hope that both you and I retain our happy life. But to put you out of your misery - drastic steps could lead to various things eg alcohol, drugs, depression.
And don't say it won't happen to you. It could. Better people than you have said the same thing and it has happened, so to quote the Bible, which you will probably mock - 1 Cor 10 v 12 "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall".
Obviously you have no imagination. Let us hope that both you and I retain our happy life. But to put you out of your misery - drastic steps could lead to various things eg alcohol, drugs, depression.
And don't say it won't happen to you. It could. Better people than you have said the same thing and it has happened, so to quote the Bible, which you will probably mock - 1 Cor 10 v 12 "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall".
Octavius
No, but if that's all they are capable of then so what.
08:56 Tue 09th Oct 2012
Rather than pity the fool who has resigned to arbitrarily imposed limitations I prefer speaking out against the mind crippling doctrine of faith that made him one for the sake of other potential victims for whom there remains a spark of hope.
No, but if that's all they are capable of then so what.
08:56 Tue 09th Oct 2012
Rather than pity the fool who has resigned to arbitrarily imposed limitations I prefer speaking out against the mind crippling doctrine of faith that made him one for the sake of other potential victims for whom there remains a spark of hope.
Batexia, You’re right. I don’t have much of an imagination, which is probably why I prefer to work with fact. Only a day or two ago I was discussing the psychology of the religious with a rather liberal Christian minister with whom – believe it or not - I agreed - at least on that subject. Frankly, you give the impression that the potential scenario you project for me precisely illustrates your own fears.
As for your biblical quote, this is the second time in a week or so that the same verse has been offered here – and I’ll say the same to you as I said on the other occasion. Are you quite sure it doesn’t refer to you?
As for your biblical quote, this is the second time in a week or so that the same verse has been offered here – and I’ll say the same to you as I said on the other occasion. Are you quite sure it doesn’t refer to you?
The true test of morals and principles - is when the non religious are good through nothing but personal choice.
If people are only living good wholesome lives because they think they have to for fear of gods wrath, then it is not true, it does not come from the heart.
They are basically threatened into behaving a certain way, or they go to hell forever etc
most people will do what you want them to if you threaten them with pain - they dont want to though...
If people are only living good wholesome lives because they think they have to for fear of gods wrath, then it is not true, it does not come from the heart.
They are basically threatened into behaving a certain way, or they go to hell forever etc
most people will do what you want them to if you threaten them with pain - they dont want to though...
Joko, that seems about right to me. Batexia appears to imply that to avoid falling foul of the more unsavoury aspects of life it is necessary to abandon one’s intellect to the will of the biblical God. That may work for the weak-willed – but the strong are perfectly capable of dealing with reality and, hence, for them, an imaginary crutch is surplus to requirements.
batexia - I am not a sinner. Only religious people can be sinners because sin is strictly a religious concept.
I live by the laws of the land and my own built-in conscience and moral sense - as millions of others do. Religionists have an extra set of rules which vary from religion to religion (and sometimes within a religion) which they call sins. If you are not religious then none of them apply - just as the rules of my local golf club don't apply to me because I am not a member
Contraception is a sin to Roman Catholics but not to Anglicans. Working on a Saturday is a sin to Jews but not to Christians. And so on.
So you are quite wrong when you call us all sinners. You should try to learn more about these things.
I live by the laws of the land and my own built-in conscience and moral sense - as millions of others do. Religionists have an extra set of rules which vary from religion to religion (and sometimes within a religion) which they call sins. If you are not religious then none of them apply - just as the rules of my local golf club don't apply to me because I am not a member
Contraception is a sin to Roman Catholics but not to Anglicans. Working on a Saturday is a sin to Jews but not to Christians. And so on.
So you are quite wrong when you call us all sinners. You should try to learn more about these things.
Naomi/Are you quite sure it doesn’t refer to you? /
I wouldn't be so presumptious as to say it doesn't. Anything can happen to anyone at anytime.
Chakka35/So you are quite wrong when you call us all sinners. You should try to learn more about these things. /
But I am not wrong. Whatever you may say or think, all are born sinners. To quote my old nan "The proof is in the pudding". When you find out you are wrong, it may very well be too late. I have been learning now for nigh on 60 years and still have more to learn,.
I wouldn't be so presumptious as to say it doesn't. Anything can happen to anyone at anytime.
Chakka35/So you are quite wrong when you call us all sinners. You should try to learn more about these things. /
But I am not wrong. Whatever you may say or think, all are born sinners. To quote my old nan "The proof is in the pudding". When you find out you are wrong, it may very well be too late. I have been learning now for nigh on 60 years and still have more to learn,.
Batexia //I wouldn't be so presumptious as to say it doesn't.//
Oh, but you are that presumptuous. You're convinced you're right, and your sole intention in posting that was to wave a finger of warning at me because I don’t believe as you do.
//I have been learning now for nigh on 60 years and still have more to learn,.//
You do indeed.
Oh, but you are that presumptuous. You're convinced you're right, and your sole intention in posting that was to wave a finger of warning at me because I don’t believe as you do.
//I have been learning now for nigh on 60 years and still have more to learn,.//
You do indeed.
Batexia - “... Whatever you may say or think, all are born sinners...”
Is it futile to point out the fact that you have overtly contradicted yourself? In the post I have quoted above you quite categorically state that everyone is born a sinner. Yet in your post of '21:48 Mon 08th Oct 2012' you state that, “... Babies are innocent...”.
Assuming that no one is attempting to reinterpret the well-defined words in our finest dictionaries I presume that you, like everyone else, accepts that the word 'innocent' is equivalent to the phrase 'free from sin'.
So which is it? Are all babies born sinners or are they all innocent?
Is it futile to point out the fact that you have overtly contradicted yourself? In the post I have quoted above you quite categorically state that everyone is born a sinner. Yet in your post of '21:48 Mon 08th Oct 2012' you state that, “... Babies are innocent...”.
Assuming that no one is attempting to reinterpret the well-defined words in our finest dictionaries I presume that you, like everyone else, accepts that the word 'innocent' is equivalent to the phrase 'free from sin'.
So which is it? Are all babies born sinners or are they all innocent?
Batexia - “... I have been learning now for nigh on 60 years and still have more to learn...”
As do we all. However, a shortening temporal proximity to a theoretical afterlife does not make ones convictions of such notions more convincing or more rational. Nor does it make pronouncements on the nature of sin and sinners any more poignant.
As do we all. However, a shortening temporal proximity to a theoretical afterlife does not make ones convictions of such notions more convincing or more rational. Nor does it make pronouncements on the nature of sin and sinners any more poignant.
Naomi, I think your post is rational and certainly not bleak. However you seem to be generalising on some particulars in blaming religion for unhealthy neuroses. Religion has more serious and historically established crimes to answer for than "mere" nervous breakdowns, as argued in many other AB debates.
What most scares me most is the human invention (via our god-invention) of the concept of everlasting life, particularly re-incarnation! Imagine dying and then popping-up as a spider with legs pulled off by a curious baby then eventually back again as a cat run over but not killed and so on with no way off the carousel - not even suicide! Even heaven seems awful, being bored but never bored-to-death.
Nope I cling to my scientifically-based belief that all life-forms are a temporary blip in the laws of thermodynamics which will eventually triumph via the golden rule of entropy (total disorder tends to a maximum). Such tempoary blips are common and can be explained by chemistry and physics. Indeed the only religious solid truth we know of accepts the law of entropy in "ashes to ashes, dust to dust"
I do not fear death as it's inevitability is our most proven fact of life, it's the "timing" and "how it happens" that's scary.
Fundementally I subscribe to Heinrich Heine's philosophy: "To sleep is good, to die is better but by far the best is never to have been born at all".
Call it bleak if you like but it solves all problems from that of the earwig thro' to human kind in one fell swoop, lol.
What most scares me most is the human invention (via our god-invention) of the concept of everlasting life, particularly re-incarnation! Imagine dying and then popping-up as a spider with legs pulled off by a curious baby then eventually back again as a cat run over but not killed and so on with no way off the carousel - not even suicide! Even heaven seems awful, being bored but never bored-to-death.
Nope I cling to my scientifically-based belief that all life-forms are a temporary blip in the laws of thermodynamics which will eventually triumph via the golden rule of entropy (total disorder tends to a maximum). Such tempoary blips are common and can be explained by chemistry and physics. Indeed the only religious solid truth we know of accepts the law of entropy in "ashes to ashes, dust to dust"
I do not fear death as it's inevitability is our most proven fact of life, it's the "timing" and "how it happens" that's scary.
Fundementally I subscribe to Heinrich Heine's philosophy: "To sleep is good, to die is better but by far the best is never to have been born at all".
Call it bleak if you like but it solves all problems from that of the earwig thro' to human kind in one fell swoop, lol.
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