Animals & Nature1 min ago
Do third parties have the right to forgive?
41 Answers
Christians often quote the mantra (obviously without thinking about it) that Jesus died on the cross to ‘save’ us and that our sins will be forgiven. (Not mine, I hastily add: sins are a religious concept which I don’t recognise.) The Lord’s prayer even asks for such forgiveness.
But what right has any third party to forgive the crimes that people have committed without consulting the victims of those crimes?
If someone raped your daughter or abused your child or murdered your mother or…. how would you feel on hearing that Jesus or some god or other had forgiven that person?
Would you shrug your shoulders and say” Oh well, that’s OK then” or would you be more likely to say “What bluddy impertinence!” and curse that person for his barefaced cheek?
How do Christians cope with this?
But what right has any third party to forgive the crimes that people have committed without consulting the victims of those crimes?
If someone raped your daughter or abused your child or murdered your mother or…. how would you feel on hearing that Jesus or some god or other had forgiven that person?
Would you shrug your shoulders and say” Oh well, that’s OK then” or would you be more likely to say “What bluddy impertinence!” and curse that person for his barefaced cheek?
How do Christians cope with this?
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How somebody who is not personally involved or affected by somebody's actions can forgive that person for their actions defies comprehension. Forgiveness only means anything if the victim does the forgiving, anything else is just self indulgent nonsense.
The benefit of forgiveness is to the victim as it prevents lifelong bitterness which often does more damage than the original transgression.
The benefit of forgiveness is to the victim as it prevents lifelong bitterness which often does more damage than the original transgression.
No,For God to forgive all sins would be for him to encourage sinning. In fact, it would make his laws futile, meaningless, useless. For example, if all who violated traffic laws were graciously forgiven, why bother making such laws in the first place?
Jehovah God made man a free moral agent, that is he made him with the ability to distinguish between doing what is right by obeying God’s law, and doing what is wrong by disobeying it, and doing either thing with the freedom to choose. However, with the freedom of choice also went accountability for one’s actions. That is why, when Jehovah God spoke to Moses about His great loving-kindness and His willingness to forgive, He went on to say, “but by no means will he give exemption from punishment. ( Ex. 34:7)
Jehovah God made man a free moral agent, that is he made him with the ability to distinguish between doing what is right by obeying God’s law, and doing what is wrong by disobeying it, and doing either thing with the freedom to choose. However, with the freedom of choice also went accountability for one’s actions. That is why, when Jehovah God spoke to Moses about His great loving-kindness and His willingness to forgive, He went on to say, “but by no means will he give exemption from punishment. ( Ex. 34:7)
goodlife:
Why did you stop quoting Exodus 34:7 there? The full passage tells us that God forgives the sinner but inflicts the punishment upon their descendents who had done no wrong. Indeed upon those who had not even been born yet.
"... will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation."
So my granddaughter is now free of the punishment due to my great grandfather. But that won't let her off. No. God is still punishing all women becuse of Eve's transgression by making them experience increased pain in childbirth forever.
He will smash the heads of the children of tribes He doesn't like. He will have unborn babies cut from the wombs of their mothers and hacked to death in front of them. I am not making this up. It is all in the book you say is the word of your god.
Abraham's Monster is a sick and twisted concept by any standard of morality. Those who worship it are indeed mentally ill.
You are guilty of exactly what birdie has pointed out. You ignore the hideous parts of your God and pretend all with God is beautiful. In fact passages that describe the miserable disgusting immoral character of God far far outweigh the very limited parts that characterise Him as loving.
Morover any suggestion of His loving nature is invariably couched in demands that the failure to worship Him to every exact instruction will instead bring his wrath down upon those who fail to comply and everyone around them.
Why did you stop quoting Exodus 34:7 there? The full passage tells us that God forgives the sinner but inflicts the punishment upon their descendents who had done no wrong. Indeed upon those who had not even been born yet.
"... will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation."
So my granddaughter is now free of the punishment due to my great grandfather. But that won't let her off. No. God is still punishing all women becuse of Eve's transgression by making them experience increased pain in childbirth forever.
He will smash the heads of the children of tribes He doesn't like. He will have unborn babies cut from the wombs of their mothers and hacked to death in front of them. I am not making this up. It is all in the book you say is the word of your god.
Abraham's Monster is a sick and twisted concept by any standard of morality. Those who worship it are indeed mentally ill.
You are guilty of exactly what birdie has pointed out. You ignore the hideous parts of your God and pretend all with God is beautiful. In fact passages that describe the miserable disgusting immoral character of God far far outweigh the very limited parts that characterise Him as loving.
Morover any suggestion of His loving nature is invariably couched in demands that the failure to worship Him to every exact instruction will instead bring his wrath down upon those who fail to comply and everyone around them.
beso - I am not making this up.
If you desire to deepen your own knowledge of Jehovah and his ways, continue to do research and to meditate when you read the Bible. Carefully examine the various fascinating aspects of Jehovah’s personality. Prayerfully consider how you might imitate God and conform your life more fully to his purpose. This will help you to avoid pitfalls, to deal appropriately with fellow believers, and to aid others in coming to know and love our magnificent God.
If you desire to deepen your own knowledge of Jehovah and his ways, continue to do research and to meditate when you read the Bible. Carefully examine the various fascinating aspects of Jehovah’s personality. Prayerfully consider how you might imitate God and conform your life more fully to his purpose. This will help you to avoid pitfalls, to deal appropriately with fellow believers, and to aid others in coming to know and love our magnificent God.
Goodlife, Jehovah's Witnesses are very fond of the word "Truth".
In your own words (please try if you can) give me truthful answers to three questions, please.
(1) Is Armageddon imminent?
(2) Will everybody except for JWs be killed at Armageddon?
Assuming the answer to the first two is "yes", then:
(3) Is Jehovah right to do this?
In your own words (please try if you can) give me truthful answers to three questions, please.
(1) Is Armageddon imminent?
(2) Will everybody except for JWs be killed at Armageddon?
Assuming the answer to the first two is "yes", then:
(3) Is Jehovah right to do this?
Goodlife, what on earth does 'prayerfully consider' mean? you don't need to explain the 'consider' bit, I know what that means. Does it mean to consider with suspension of disbelief, or with blinkers firmly in place? Perhaps it means consider in a woolly kind of way without engaging the thinking process? I await enlightenment (but not from god, obviously, as I haven't got that much time).
Christians and others who 'consider prayerfully are those who seek an answer to a problem by praying. They are calmed and encouraged by the thought that what decision they then make was helped by God. Is that not right?
When GWB said he prayed in deciding that invading Iraq was the right decision, he was sincere; he became sure in his mind because of prayer. If he thought not to invade was better, he'd have been reassured in the same way.
If an atheist can't decide between two equally compelling answers, he might toss a coin. It's just as good. But, in the end, one argument always seems better than the other and we don't need God to 'toss the coin for us'; we don't need to think that a deity helped us to decide, or decided for us, what we were minded to do, and to feel reassured by that.
When GWB said he prayed in deciding that invading Iraq was the right decision, he was sincere; he became sure in his mind because of prayer. If he thought not to invade was better, he'd have been reassured in the same way.
If an atheist can't decide between two equally compelling answers, he might toss a coin. It's just as good. But, in the end, one argument always seems better than the other and we don't need God to 'toss the coin for us'; we don't need to think that a deity helped us to decide, or decided for us, what we were minded to do, and to feel reassured by that.
No, jomifl. What I'm saying is that if we reallly cannot decide what to do we might as well toss a coin. If we do decide by heads or tails, that is chance. If, instead, we pray in such circumstances and then opt for one on the other, just guess, that's just our guess and just as random. It's not as though God had tossed a coin for us and told us the result. Devout people like to think that whatever they decide, and however, is inspired by their deity in some way, it was guided by prayer .
No. Prayer is a way to pretend that one's prejudices are motivated by a higher consciousness.
Scientific research has shown that the believer's perception of their god's will is closely aligned with their personal attitudes. If those attitudes shift so does their interpretation of their god's directives.
Scientific research has shown that the believer's perception of their god's will is closely aligned with their personal attitudes. If those attitudes shift so does their interpretation of their god's directives.
In order for a Christian to embrace the concept of forgiveness they have to understand what the word forgive has more than one meaning. It can mean to pardon someone and it can also mean to cease to feel resentment against.
When a person commits a wrong (sin) against another person only God can say if the sin will affect that persons chance of getting the gift of everlasting life. Individual Christians have no control over this kind of forgiveness. Only God can read the heart to look for things such as genuine sorrow over what was done, motive and things like these. Because God can read even out thoughts he is qualified to decide who recieves this kind of forgiveness. It is a Christian requirement that Christians be forgiving the way God forgives us, when we are repentant and sorry.
Since humans are unable to read the hearts of others it can be very difficult to tell if someone is truly repentant and determined not to do such an offense again. We can only judge by what we see. What happens sometimes is that when someone hurts us we carry the hurt around like an open wound that is unable to heal. I say this because hurt can dominate our thoughts, even limit how we live our lives, who we love, etc. so that we can be come affected.
But if we forgive by letting go of the resentment and move forward we are truly free. Forgiveness is a gift, a freedom that we give to ourselves but it should come with some cautions. Do your best to protect yourself (peacefully) so that in the future, as far as you are concerned you never let it happen again. It's hard to call yourself a victim if you willfully allow yourself to be hurt even though it does sometimes happen.
Jesus came to let us know that God, Jehovah God loves us and that he wants us to be safe and happy. That's why he toldl us things like be cautious. "Prove yourselves cautious as serpents and yet innocent as doves." Matthew. 10:16.
This one was written before Jesus was born "Anyone inexperienced puts faith in every word, but the shrewd one considers his steps." Proverbs 14:15
Christians let go of the resentment and move forward like Jesus did he did not hate his enemies yet he protected himself.
Why Does God Permit Wickedness?
http://
When a person commits a wrong (sin) against another person only God can say if the sin will affect that persons chance of getting the gift of everlasting life. Individual Christians have no control over this kind of forgiveness. Only God can read the heart to look for things such as genuine sorrow over what was done, motive and things like these. Because God can read even out thoughts he is qualified to decide who recieves this kind of forgiveness. It is a Christian requirement that Christians be forgiving the way God forgives us, when we are repentant and sorry.
Since humans are unable to read the hearts of others it can be very difficult to tell if someone is truly repentant and determined not to do such an offense again. We can only judge by what we see. What happens sometimes is that when someone hurts us we carry the hurt around like an open wound that is unable to heal. I say this because hurt can dominate our thoughts, even limit how we live our lives, who we love, etc. so that we can be come affected.
But if we forgive by letting go of the resentment and move forward we are truly free. Forgiveness is a gift, a freedom that we give to ourselves but it should come with some cautions. Do your best to protect yourself (peacefully) so that in the future, as far as you are concerned you never let it happen again. It's hard to call yourself a victim if you willfully allow yourself to be hurt even though it does sometimes happen.
Jesus came to let us know that God, Jehovah God loves us and that he wants us to be safe and happy. That's why he toldl us things like be cautious. "Prove yourselves cautious as serpents and yet innocent as doves." Matthew. 10:16.
This one was written before Jesus was born "Anyone inexperienced puts faith in every word, but the shrewd one considers his steps." Proverbs 14:15
Christians let go of the resentment and move forward like Jesus did he did not hate his enemies yet he protected himself.
Why Does God Permit Wickedness?
http://
I first suspected that Uzurmnd was just goodlife's latest incarnation.
But then I realised they actually attributed their pastings.
"Anyone inexperienced puts faith in every word, but the shrewd one considers his steps." Proverbs 14:15
I agree. The faithful should listen to that advice instead of blindly accepting the drivel fed to them by them by preists and in rubbish like The Watchtower.
But then I realised they actually attributed their pastings.
"Anyone inexperienced puts faith in every word, but the shrewd one considers his steps." Proverbs 14:15
I agree. The faithful should listen to that advice instead of blindly accepting the drivel fed to them by them by preists and in rubbish like The Watchtower.
Always interesting, isn't it, that religionists never answer the question but give us sermons instead - of which Uzyrmnd's is the latest.
Uzy has interpreted forgiveness only from the aspect of an afterlife in which we shall be judged by this 'God' character. But to those who consider that a lot of deranged nonsense - which might include the victim of some wrong - it's rather irrelevant. In what way is such a victim to be mollified by the thought that a weird supernatural creature has forgiven the wrong?
Mind you, I sometimes regret that there is no Judgment Day. I'd love to see 'God' trying to justify those appalling crimes, listed by beso and cheerfully ignored by goodlife, that the OT describes so lip-smackingly. Astonishingly, goodlife says that we should imitate God! In other words let's go out and commit crimes against humanity equal to all those committed by Hitler, Stalin and all the great human monsters added together and then multioplied a hundredfold.
What a wonderful world the religious offer us.
Uzy has interpreted forgiveness only from the aspect of an afterlife in which we shall be judged by this 'God' character. But to those who consider that a lot of deranged nonsense - which might include the victim of some wrong - it's rather irrelevant. In what way is such a victim to be mollified by the thought that a weird supernatural creature has forgiven the wrong?
Mind you, I sometimes regret that there is no Judgment Day. I'd love to see 'God' trying to justify those appalling crimes, listed by beso and cheerfully ignored by goodlife, that the OT describes so lip-smackingly. Astonishingly, goodlife says that we should imitate God! In other words let's go out and commit crimes against humanity equal to all those committed by Hitler, Stalin and all the great human monsters added together and then multioplied a hundredfold.
What a wonderful world the religious offer us.
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