Gunning for God

[naomi24]

I’m currently reading ‘Gunning for God’, by John C Lennox, Professor of Mathematics at Oxford, Fellow in Mathematics and the Philosophy of Science, and Pastoral Advisor at Green Templeton College, Oxford. It started quite promisingly, I thought, but quickly descended into the usual assault on the works of Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, et al. I’m about a third of the way through it now, and although the author is vigorous in his condemnation of atheism (often irrationally so), he has yet to explain his reasons for defending religion – and frankly, with works of this genre, this complete failure to address the fundamental issues is becoming rather tedious. I’m hoping the next two thirds will offer something a little more interesting, but in the meantime can anyone recommend a book that doesn’t depend upon atheist-bashing and that actually offers a good case for religion? And if anyone suggests the Bible, the Koran, or the Book of Mormon – wotchit! ;o)

[flobadob]

Lololololol, good luck with this one.

[Zacs-Master]

Good luck in your quest for an answer which can't be found.

[DTCwordfan]

Errr. No.

Suggest seriously that you write to Tom Wright, ex Bish of Durham and has become No1 Prof of Theology at St Andrews and ask him - and I bet he responds.

(I was at school with him) - he has been one of the more inspirational CofE leaders even if you disagree with h.is position, he merits consideration and balance... He ought to be in contention for the Archbish as he offers one of the best conservative theological brains in the Church - and retired from Durham because of his theological differences with Rowan W. They could do a swap of jobs perhaps as he could provide a unifying leadership to a disjointed CoE and its minions.

[ludwig]

Try 'Mere Christianity' by C.S Lewis. It might be interesting from the point of view that it's pre-Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens, so it can't rely on bashing 'aggressive' modern atheists.

I read it ages ago, and just remember finding it interesting.

[DTCwordfan]

[email protected] will put you in contact, naomi.

[Clanad]

May I suggest, The Creator and the Cosmos by astrophysicist Dr. Hugh Ross?

[birdie1971]

I think it's interesting and commendable that an atheist such as yourself is reading a book that argues the case for the existence of a supreme deity. I wonder how many theists have reciprocated and read a book that specifically puts the case for the absence of such an entity?

If I were a gambling man, I would wager that not many have.

[FredPuli43]

Well, some believers have become atheists, birdie, but those who remain, or who become, convinced 'theists' already' know' there is a God, so won't be bothering with a book which argues otherwise. It would be waste of their God-given time.

[wolf63]

Why don't you write a book naomi ?

I am a devout atheist and find that what has been done in the name of religion to people (historically and presently) beyond any description that I am able to articulate.

But just because this is what I believe doesn't necessarily make it correct. I still try to accept that most people use whichever religion to help them with their life and even to enrich the lives of others.

[birdie1971]

Fred - “... It would be waste of their God-given time...”

I know. The point I was making is that (in my experience) atheists are far more conversant with the other side of the argument than the theists are. Most theists live their lives in a spiritual bubble, the outside of which is a bit of mystery to them. This becomes obvious very quickly when debates on religious matters arise. Most theists seem completely unaware of (or very unprepared for) the arguments stacked against their theology and cannot defend it in any coherent way.

For theists reading this, please note that I said 'most' and not 'all'. I am aware that certain theists on AB are far more adept at theological argument than others.

[FredPuli43]

Yes, birdie. Quite agree. Atheists who started as believers have an advantage, of course. Inevitably they are familar with belief in God, may well have been taught the arguments, or some, for acceptance, or have been taught unquestioningly that God exists ,and have decided that they reject that proposition, which may have been taking quite a step.
Theists who remain so have not suffered that process in reverse. Nobody told them in their childhood that there was no God and the arguments for that. They have never been called upon to put an argument against their belief. The rest of us, atheists, are well versed in that, for we had to persuade ourselves that what we were taught and believed was false.

(Night owls, aren't we? Er..are we allowed to mention owls on AB?)

[naomi24]

Birdie & Fred, my subject is religious history – hence my interest, hence the mound and variety of reading material that surrounds me, and hence my transition from theist to atheist. It appears few theists read anything that may contradict their beliefs, and I would say that only two here – both Christians - are adept at theological argument. Most, it seems, know very little about their religion and simply believe what other people, who know no more than they do, have taught them. They rarely investigate further.

wolf63, //But just because this is what I believe doesn't necessarily make it correct.//

So where do you draw the line? Even the ‘gentlest’ versions of the Abrahamic religions teach the young to fear retribution for their misdemeanours from an unknown, unseen, unproven magical entity. People would be horrified at the idea of teaching a child that the bogeyman will get them if they’re naughty – they would consider it cruel and mentally abusive and damaging - and yet they have no reservations – in fact they deem it their duty – to fill young and impressionable minds with thoughts of the vengeful bogeyman in the sky – and their apologists support them in that. Is that correct? Not in my opinion.

[boxtops]

Naomi - to digress from the religious context - when I was little my parents certainly did teach me that if I was naughty there would be retribution. Either it would be a policeman or some other figure of authority which would come after me. Times have changed - today's youngsters wouldn't be so gullible!

[slaney]

The Case for God, by Karen Armstrong.
http://www.guardian.c...e-god-alain-de-botton

[boxtops]

I like Karen Armstrong's writing.

[slaney]

So do I boxtops - excellent speaker too. I went to a lecture of hers on the nature of religious fundamentalism - lots of intelligent and thought provoking insights.

[naomi24]

Slaney, thanks, but I’ve read that. I have several of her books.

Boxy, of course parents teach that misdemeanours result in punishment – and rightly so – but no responsible parent teaches a child that punishment comes after death and lasts for eternity.

[boxtops]

Fundamental fear is a terrible thing. Many years ago, a young Muslim girl told me that she was terrified of going to her uncle's funeral, because she would hear the deceased screaming in his coffin as he knew he was going to hell. That's some indoctrination of a young person....

[RATTER15]

The problem is that nearly all theists including church leaders etc all have a different view on who or what God really is, so I think any books written on this subjects will generally be about how they see God in their own minds.

[naomi24]

Boxy, that's terrible! Shudder

Ratter, //any books written on this subjects will generally be about how they see God in their own minds. //

... which is why anyone who's genuinely interested in seeking the truth should never read just one. ;o)