How would you test whether prayer works?

[chakka35]

In a thread below Truthabounds claimed, on very flimsy grounds, that prayer works.. So how would one set up a rigorous double-blind test for the efficacy of prayer? My claim is that the problems are insuperable. Consider:

Assuming that you convene Group A who are going to be prayed for and Group B who are not...what would the prayer concern?

Would you give them all a lottery ticket for the following Saturday and pray for A to win and not pray for B – or pray for B to lose? No, no, some would say, that’s too frivolous, thus breaking the first rule of double-blind testing: that the testers must not decide in advance what will affect the results.

OK, so you pray for some ill people to recover and some not. Is that ethical? How do you ensure that they are all at the same stage of similar illnesses and how long do you allow for natural healing to take place?

How do you ensure that those not prayed for are truly not prayed for? Do you go to the families and friends of Group B and tell them not to pray for their loved ones? And do you issue an edict to all clergy not to have their general prayer for the sick to be issued until further notice?

Look, I’ve just scratched the surface of the problem. Somebody else talk for a minute..

[Truthabounds]

Naomi,
talk about the pot calling the kettle black!
I have had rude answers from you but I prefer to gloss over them knowing that you don't always know what you are talking about. Just as Chakka does not know what he is talking about. You may think you do. But at the end of the day, we will have to wait and see who is right. But the problem is, it may be too late for you to do anything about it.

[vulcan]

I will offer you the same courtesy Truthabounds and will gloss over your rudeness because you don't know what you're talking about.

[naomi24]

Truthabounds, //I have had rude answers from you //

Where? You've had only rational answers from me, which you clearly don't like.

And you're still at it! If you don't like the message, argue the message. Don't attack the messenger!

[LazyGun]

@Naomi - I think it has something to do with the rarified air perched high as they are on their mountain of religious holier-than-thou -ness that shuts down the politeness and manners gene - instead, all we get is finger waving, smug moralising and unshakeable certitude in the rightness of what they do.

As to prayer - Christians have long claimed that prayer is a means of contacting God, and that prayers can be answered. Christians have long claimed that prayer can heal - witness several high profile, preventable deaths of mostly children who, but for the blind faith of their parents and community, could have been healed and lived a long, fruitful life.

So, given these claims, and the certainty and moral rightness with which they are expressed, it seems entirely appopriate to see if, in fact, such intercessory prayer works - and guess what? No evidence to show that they do - what a surprise!.

If you want to pray in private, or as an act of collective worship with like minded individuals, then thats ok - but what isnt ok is to go around claiming with certitude that prayer works, or that it can heal the sick. As I think it was Ratter said earlier, God must really hate amputees - Come to think of it, that might be the one piece of evidence that would give me pause for thought - if, through prayer, an amputee miraculously grew back a full limb...........

[cupid04]

when God answers prayer [and believe me he does] It dosen't mean he says
yes to everything you ask for, that wouldn't be good for you! A bit like being
a parent [he is our heavenly father after all] you wouldn't give your children
everything they ask for because you know that wouldn't be good for them.

[modeller]

A test was carried out last year in the US where 200 heart patients awaiting by-pass surgery were split into two . Half were prayed for and half were not. The patients didn't know which group they were in. The results were almost identical . The same number died in each group and the recovery progress was
the same in each group.
Whenever I have told this story to theists they always answered by saying .
You can't/musn't test God! Why not? Are they afraid of being proved wrong ?
What does it say in the bible ? Faith can move mountains ! Oh yeah !
On a personal level I have never had a prayer answered. Not even when I was 4 years old when I asked God to save my sick kitten . It died !

[modeller]

cupid // because you know that wouldn't be good for them. //
Oh yes ! How would saving my kitten have been bad for a 4 year old ?

I know the answer "God works in a wondrous way his wonders to perform "
It's the cop out used when you theists don't know the answer.

[cupid04]

Hi modeller, I dont profess to have all the answers because I choose to
believe and you dont. I have had many sadnesses in my life also but I don't
blame God. I'm a normal human beingwith feelings just like you. I probably
have a lot of the same questions you do also. Why the pain and suffering,
why is there people starving.I'm on a journey of discovery just like you.
None of us have all the answers. I dont profess to be better than you either,
just because I choose to believe and you dont.

[naomi24]

//Just a thought, ask Ken Bigley and all those who prayed for him, did it work, a resounding NO. //

Maybe the prayers went to the wrong version of God on that occasion, Doc.

[naomi24]

Me too. :o(

[welshlibranr]

sorry I think it's a waste of time!.....was encouraged as a child to pray every night!......brought up in a very religious family!....any prayers answered.....No!........waste of time and effort!...........life is what we ourselves make it, end of story!...........

[birdie1971]

Naomi -

Looks like 'Truthabounds' is threatening you with eternal damnation... “But at the end of the day, we will have to wait and see who is right. But the problem is, it may be too late for you to do anything about it.”


I love it when religious types 'threaten' atheists with hell-fire. The absurdity is quite sublime.

[naomi24]

Birdie, //Naomi - Looks like 'Truthabounds' is threatening you with eternal damnation... “But at the end of the day, we will have to wait and see who is right. But the problem is, it may be too late for you to do anything about it.//

Several such mystics have said the same thing. Just as well I don't believe in fortune telling. ;o)

[chakka35]

naomi and others, the rudeness of Truthabounds is best ignored, proving yet again that those with no viable argument often resort to ad hominem attacks. Thank you for your kind support. He also shows his ignorance of double-blind testing by deciding that asking for a lottery win is not on. That breaks the first rule: that you must not assume the results of the test before you receive them. But like keyplus he is a religious fanatic uninterested in reason, which will get you nowhere if you try to use it against him.


I think I'll call that a day. It's obvious that the test cannot properly be conducted - even if you assume (which I did only for the sake of the question) that God exists.

[Truthabounds]

Naomi: I wouldn't dream of threatening either you or anyone else with hell & damnation. For one thing it doesn't exist. Hellfire is the invention of the churches to keep their throngs in order during the middle ages. Nowhere does the Bible talk of anyone going to a fiery hell. Not even the worst criminal imaginable! In fact, the Bible talks of a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous, this will take place on earth, not some imaginary place inbetween earth and heaven. But of course, you won't believe it so I will save my breath.
You would appear to prefer to believe the lies of the churches and religion in general.

[LazyGun]

@ Truthabounds - yet again, you state with certainty that a supernatural event will occur in the absence of any empirical evidence, only your own blind faith.

I am curious - do you talk like this as well? or do you just reserve the little homilies, the quotations of verse numbers etc. for your writing on here?

[JonnyBoy12]

I am going to pray for some sensible helpful answers on this site.

Do you think that my prayers will be answered, I wonder?

[naomi24]

//But of course, you won't believe it so I will save my breath. //

Thank Zeus for that!