How would you test whether prayer works?

[chakka35]

In a thread below Truthabounds claimed, on very flimsy grounds, that prayer works.. So how would one set up a rigorous double-blind test for the efficacy of prayer? My claim is that the problems are insuperable. Consider:

Assuming that you convene Group A who are going to be prayed for and Group B who are not...what would the prayer concern?

Would you give them all a lottery ticket for the following Saturday and pray for A to win and not pray for B – or pray for B to lose? No, no, some would say, that’s too frivolous, thus breaking the first rule of double-blind testing: that the testers must not decide in advance what will affect the results.

OK, so you pray for some ill people to recover and some not. Is that ethical? How do you ensure that they are all at the same stage of similar illnesses and how long do you allow for natural healing to take place?

How do you ensure that those not prayed for are truly not prayed for? Do you go to the families and friends of Group B and tell them not to pray for their loved ones? And do you issue an edict to all clergy not to have their general prayer for the sick to be issued until further notice?

Look, I’ve just scratched the surface of the problem. Somebody else talk for a minute..

[birdie1971]

Lazy - “... Interesting isn’t it that those religious type who wave the moralising finger at us from their smugly assumed faith based high-ground often are the worst offenders...”

I have had personal experience with this. I used to work with a man who was a self-professed devout Christian who never failed to mention this fact; a man who repeatedly spoke about God and his devotion to Him and who had done missionary work in Africa (or so he claimed). It turned out that he was a thief who stole a video camera, plus various accessories, from our employer back in 2001.

The eighth commandment must have slipped his mind the day he made off with over £600 worth of VT equipment.

[Philtaz]

i can relate to that birdie.
We had a fellow from overseas join us as a work colleague several years back. Very devout in his practice, though no one ever knew exactly what religion it was he followed. It was some form of christianity by all accounts and he was constantly making us aware of his stoic adhesion to his faith.
A lot of females where I work considered him nice, harmless and quiet, though he never liked being given any instructions or directions from women for some reason. I was always wary of him and the way he used his ethnicity as a tool to further his own ends.

Everyone changed their opinion of him when, a year or two later following arrest and questioning he readily admitted raping his own 17 year old daughter as, according to his religion she 'needed to be taught a lesson'.

Despite his willingness to confess his crime I never understood why his wife stood by him, but that's religious fervour for you.

[Philtaz]

Oh, almost forgot the question in the OP.

I'll pray for six numbers on the Lottery tomorrow. Let's see if mine are answered......

[beso]

Keyplus // A man is driving towards airport where he wanted to catch a flight to sign a multimillion business contract, got stuck in traffic he prayed that he would catch the flight else it would be huge loss. But he could not make to the airport and missed the flight. While driving back with extreme disappointment he heard on the radio the plane he just missed has crashed killing all on board. What would be his reaction now? Should he still believe that why his prayer was not answered or should he be happy that his prayer to catch plane was not heard? //

While driving home contemplating the glory of his God instead of paying attention to the road, he drives through a red light and is killed by a truck.

And what of the man who drove to the airport without praying and missed the plane. He was also saved from the crash yet no prayer was involved. He drove home carefully and spent the rest of the day with his family.

And the man who prayed he would make it to the plane and got there only to die in the crash?

Another man is racing to the airport as he prays and doesn't have his mind on driving but rather is focussed on his prayers, crashes the car and is killed.

Then there is the guy who was runing late for the plane because he had to complete his morning prayers before he left home. His secular colleague made it to the plane on time because he hadn't wasted his time in prayer. This plane, like most of them, completed its journey safely.

Fact is, what happens is what happens. If anything, the prayer is more likely to kill the man than save him.

[naomi24]

Beso, that's the kind of wonky reasoning that made me laugh with Keyplus' camel story.

//Someone once ask Muhammad (pbuh) that how should I rely on God to look after my camel? Shall I tie the camel or shall I leave it lose. Prophet (pbuh) said that you should tie you camel because that ability God has given you. //

Can you imagine what would have happened if Mohammed had advised the camel owner to trust God to take care of his animal rather than tie it up? The camel would have hopped it! However, Mohammed tells the man that God has given him the ability to tie a rope so he should use that ability. Result, God is completely off the hook, but is still lauded for his supreme wisdom! What a load of rubbish!

That Mohammed was a wily old merchant! :o)

[beso]

Of course, without the wisdom of Mohammed, his followers could never have worked out what would happen if the camel was not tied up at night.

Those like Keyplus need a book of wisdom to guide their every thought becsause they have no capability to think out even the simplest questions. This ability is systematically destroyed from birth by indoctination.

[keyplus90]

////Naomi - Can you imagine what would have happened if Mohammed had advised the camel owner to trust God to take care of his animal rather than tie it up?////

Again that was a common sense matter that is beyond Naomi. Naomi what do you do when you when you go here and there in your car? Do you park it, put it in neutral, pull the hand break and lock it. Or you leave it rolling and walk away or alternatively carry it in your hand bag? What out of these three given option are practical and what does your insurance provider would expect from you? Obviously that man was asking about how much should he be relying on God to look after his camel. If fe people say do not go to doctor and just pray (which Islam does not allow) then you people make fun of those and if someone is saying that you as human make all of the effort in your power and then rely on God for what is not in your power then you are still not happy. And I know why, because you can’t just digest that even after all of the efforts sometime things do not go the way you wanted. Your inner self asks you why that did not happen but the answer scares you.

[naomi24]

Keyplus, //Obviously that man was asking about how much should he be relying on God to look after his camel. //

And the answer was 'not at all'.

//Your inner self asks you why that did not happen but the answer scares you. //

You're rambling again Keyplus.

[chakka35]

Typical of keyplus. My question concerned the practical problems involved in conduction a double-blind test for the efficacy of prayer. keyplus uses it as an excuse for more sermonising and irrelevant parables.

I realise now that it's a Science question and should have been posted on that site.

[chakka35]

Old_Geezer's answer was an interesting one. I would have thought it no mean task to find a whole control group of people with no friends or relations to pray for them. And how would you fiind out? Otherwise, I wouldn't relish the idea of knocking on doors and asking people to stop praying for their loved ones to get better. I doubt whether I'd survive the first doorstep without a black eye. And there is still the ethical question: would it be right to call it a success if half your patients did not recover?

I'm surprised that no-one has asked this: why should God co-operate? Even if he ever gets around to noticing puny little us on this grain of a planet (when he has thousands of millions of constellations to look after, each containing thousands of millions of stars) why would he allow himself to be tested like this, obligingly producing the result the believers want?

There are more snags than I have mentioned and, in fact, the experiment is impossible. There is an excellent account of such a test carried out by - who else? - the Templeton Foundation in Richard Dawkins' "The God Delusion" pp61-66. It cost $2.6M and got nowhere.

Actually, I don't think I'll bother the Science site with it. I was daft to ask the question in the first place. Sorry to have wasted your time.

[naomi24]

I think Truthabounds has ... er ... bounded.

[Ankou]

"why should God co-operate? Even if he ever gets around to noticing puny little us on this grain of a planet (when he has thousands of millions of constellations to look after, each containing thousands of millions of stars) why would he allow himself to be tested like this, obligingly producing the result the believers want?"

chakka, you are beginning to sound like a believer, justifying why god lets the horrors and terrors of the world happen and continue to happen. he couldn't stop the tsunami, he was too busy smiting some arrogant worms on deneb.

[heathfield]

God must get fed up with prayers - all these people constantly asking for something.

[Davethedog]

Chakka it is unanswerable. Athiest will already be convinced that prayer doesn't work. If you pray and it doesn't work in singles, groups or the entire planet, the thiest will tell you the reasons why god didn't listen and of course if you make a convincing argument as to why god should have answered you always have the "god works in mysterious ways" get out clause.

Logicaly you blind test is the way to go and , I believe, it has already been done with the expected results.

[RATTER15]

It has been claimed by millions that God has healed millions!

So has no one ever prayed that an child amputee was healed, that a child's amputated limb would grow back.

Does God really hate amputees?

Maybe we should do some research on prayers said for these amputees, lets see how many of these prayers were answered and these limbs have re-grown.

Its OK, I'm expecting accurate figures, just rough estimates will be expected

Well?

[Ankou]

the miracle of calanda ratter ?

[RATTER15]

*Its OK, I'm NOT expecting accurate figures, just rough estimates will be expected.

Well?

[Davethedog]

Ratter: Prayers millons Limbs 0. but be fair that might be a bit hard how about repairing spinal injuries, if god wished to be inconspicuous, this would be the way to go.

[RATTER15]

Ankou, foolish me, he saw no reason to repeat this performance since 1640?

Ok, so I will accept that one, people were honest then, it couldn't possibly be wrong :-)

[nannybooby]

why would you want to test if prayer works? you either believe or not in God if you beleive then testing if it works isnt an act of faith . If you dont beleive you wouldnt bother in the first place.