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Following on from the >>God has been evicted from cosmology . . .<< thread.
88 Answers
OK, imagine this: It has been proven beyond any doubt with categoric proof that there is no Gods, anywhere or ever has been. even al the religious leaders worldwide have accepted this.
What now?
How would the world take shape?
I think the more extremist cultures and faiths like Muslims would need to war against something, I actually think that if it happened overnight some parts of the human race would never cope and would go into meltdown without their Gods.
Of course I know this could never be proven but just an interesting thought.
What now?
How would the world take shape?
I think the more extremist cultures and faiths like Muslims would need to war against something, I actually think that if it happened overnight some parts of the human race would never cope and would go into meltdown without their Gods.
Of course I know this could never be proven but just an interesting thought.
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I think Birdie that nobody has taken me up on the offer because this is the fundamental definition of Science (well according to Karl Popper at least).
I thinkKeyplus came a long way (for him at least) at first in saying that he wold accept being wron if it could be proved beyond doubt that God did not exist.
However that's a level of proof that is always receeding and asking for a specific example however extreme was clearly a step too far.
However before we get too carried away it's worth remembering that a lot of us place faith in the scientific method - we don't, cant check out most of these things for ourselves.
I did an Astronomy degree yet I've never personally measured the Red Shift of a galaxy to prove that it's outside of our Galaxy.
We take a lot of these things on faith. However when we see cases of scientific fraud being uncovered or errors being corrected it gives us reason to hold that faith.
But in the final analysis it is Popper's principle of falsifiability that devides faith in science from religion.
Is there evidence that would make you change your mind? Whether it's God, ghosts or Global warming?
If you can name that evidence then you're rational, if not it's a religious belief and it's frighteningly easy to slip over that line
I thinkKeyplus came a long way (for him at least) at first in saying that he wold accept being wron if it could be proved beyond doubt that God did not exist.
However that's a level of proof that is always receeding and asking for a specific example however extreme was clearly a step too far.
However before we get too carried away it's worth remembering that a lot of us place faith in the scientific method - we don't, cant check out most of these things for ourselves.
I did an Astronomy degree yet I've never personally measured the Red Shift of a galaxy to prove that it's outside of our Galaxy.
We take a lot of these things on faith. However when we see cases of scientific fraud being uncovered or errors being corrected it gives us reason to hold that faith.
But in the final analysis it is Popper's principle of falsifiability that devides faith in science from religion.
Is there evidence that would make you change your mind? Whether it's God, ghosts or Global warming?
If you can name that evidence then you're rational, if not it's a religious belief and it's frighteningly easy to slip over that line
-- answer removed --
birdie, as one who has followed the teachings of Buddhism and Buddhist thought for over 30 years, whether or not God exists does not loom large for me, though I must say on a personal level I find it hard to conceive of God as a superhuman being having power over nature and human fortunes, (though I rule nothing out, lol!). However, when I consider the patterns underlying nature; the periodic table of elements, and not just the evolution of life, but the extraordinary power which seems contained within it. I find it impossible to accept that this is all a blind series of causes and effects. I therefore conclude that there is a pattern, and as such there is a maker of this pattern, and we are probably incapable of ever understanding what this is. Many greater minds than ours have felt like this, Fred Hoyle famously said;
A junkyard contains all the bits and pieces of a Boeing-747, dismembered and in disarray. A whirlwind happens to blow through the yard. What is the chance that after its passage a fully assembled 747, ready to fly, will be found standing there?
A junkyard contains all the bits and pieces of a Boeing-747, dismembered and in disarray. A whirlwind happens to blow through the yard. What is the chance that after its passage a fully assembled 747, ready to fly, will be found standing there?
Khandro. The patterns in the Periodic Table are fully explained by Quantum Mechanics and indeed all of Chemistry are the inevitable consequences. This is already thoroughly understood by science. No hocus pocus required.
Hoyle's analogy is completely inappropriate. The whirlwind in the junkyard has no mechanism to make parts stay together when they match. Besides, Hoyle was a complete fcukwit whose reputation is has been thoroughly demolished. Anyone who quotes him in support of their argument is barking up the wrong tree.
Hoyle's analogy is completely inappropriate. The whirlwind in the junkyard has no mechanism to make parts stay together when they match. Besides, Hoyle was a complete fcukwit whose reputation is has been thoroughly demolished. Anyone who quotes him in support of their argument is barking up the wrong tree.
The thing is the chemicals are not all blown together.
The first instance of self replication set life on the path to complexity. We can still see the beginnings of this when we place a crystal in a saturated solution. What happens? The crystal structure replicates.
Life is an inevitable conseqeunce of Chemistry when left to its own devices in trillions of potential experimental circumstantces.
The first instance of self replication set life on the path to complexity. We can still see the beginnings of this when we place a crystal in a saturated solution. What happens? The crystal structure replicates.
Life is an inevitable conseqeunce of Chemistry when left to its own devices in trillions of potential experimental circumstantces.
Khandro – Seems to me that you learnt your lesson and decided to log off. Jake is an educated person and therefore you can tell a clear difference between his posts and few other die hard atheists here. Although Jakes requirement to accept the existence of God is not unusual as people have demanded so many different things before in the history. Only thing I would say that people would resurrect and people will remember what they did in this life but to demand that ONE PERSON or someone should come back and tell what happened only then ONE MORE person would believe in God is ideally against the degree of God who is the creator of such a huge universe. Because there is difference between God and “My Hero” character that appears when you need him. But then just imagine few people may call it “just Faith” but the same faith has told me that centuries ago Prophets did speak to God, people’s demands were fulfilled there and then but many still did not believe even after that. Quran (I know) and Bible (I believe) is full of thought provoking stories. If only seeing would be believing then someone would bring a monkey and say it is god (as few believe so) then would anyone believe that monkey to be God?
God is known through his creation. If someone is willing to find God then he/she does not have to go anywhere. Just look at your own self. I am not s scientist but do know about sophistication in human body. Is it just creation of an accident? Khandro’s example about Boeing 747 is well known. But it is not the Boeing 747 which is important, It is the invitation to think about the possibility which is important. But few people will never think beyond their nose and they will call it rational thinking. How strange. Finally I believe that in Western countries first of all Greeks and then Christian myth about Trinity has confused people more than anything else. Now they are not willing to accept that as it does not make sense but they are unable to think beyond that. There thinking is always about a bearded man in the sky.
God is known through his creation. If someone is willing to find God then he/she does not have to go anywhere. Just look at your own self. I am not s scientist but do know about sophistication in human body. Is it just creation of an accident? Khandro’s example about Boeing 747 is well known. But it is not the Boeing 747 which is important, It is the invitation to think about the possibility which is important. But few people will never think beyond their nose and they will call it rational thinking. How strange. Finally I believe that in Western countries first of all Greeks and then Christian myth about Trinity has confused people more than anything else. Now they are not willing to accept that as it does not make sense but they are unable to think beyond that. There thinking is always about a bearded man in the sky.
If I was told or even witnessed someone long dead arising out of a grave babbling on about god and heaven (or hell), I would recognise immediately that I was being deceived, whether it be by others or my own eyes and mind. I know this is the only rational explanation for such things as I've experienced this phenomenon right here in R&S on almost a daily basis and to think I was exempt from such a possibility myself would only be another case of self-deception.
In order to know what you know you must first understand the process by which you know, anything. For many, seeing is believing. For others seeing is not even necessary. The difference between believing and knowing is understanding and the most crucial thing to understand of all is the conceptual rational process of applying reason, non-contradictory identification, to understanding the methods and means by which you determine how you know what you know, a process and method you will not find in or learn from reading 'holy' books but will only acquire by investing your time more wisely.
In order to know what you know you must first understand the process by which you know, anything. For many, seeing is believing. For others seeing is not even necessary. The difference between believing and knowing is understanding and the most crucial thing to understand of all is the conceptual rational process of applying reason, non-contradictory identification, to understanding the methods and means by which you determine how you know what you know, a process and method you will not find in or learn from reading 'holy' books but will only acquire by investing your time more wisely.
I always find it incredible that some people simply accept that "prophets" of the past actually communicated directly with God ands their writings are the work of God.
Even today there are peole who claim to be in similar contact and make God-inspired writings. Some of the famous ones in recent history are widely accepted to be complete nutters. Yet exactly the same behaviour in the past is accepted as genuine.
The likes of these nutcase prophets are the very last people we should be looking to for guidance in how to conduct our lives. Any objective reading of their stupid books should confirm it.
Religion is the greatest mass delusion in the history of mankind.
Even today there are peole who claim to be in similar contact and make God-inspired writings. Some of the famous ones in recent history are widely accepted to be complete nutters. Yet exactly the same behaviour in the past is accepted as genuine.
The likes of these nutcase prophets are the very last people we should be looking to for guidance in how to conduct our lives. Any objective reading of their stupid books should confirm it.
Religion is the greatest mass delusion in the history of mankind.
////Religion is the greatest mass delusion in the history of mankind.////
And people who have got out of this delusion are so satisfied and have so much inner peace that GPs have stopped prescribing antidepressants and pharmacists have sent all of the stocks back. Never in the history has anyone ever seen so many satisfied people.
And people who have got out of this delusion are so satisfied and have so much inner peace that GPs have stopped prescribing antidepressants and pharmacists have sent all of the stocks back. Never in the history has anyone ever seen so many satisfied people.
Khandro - “... I find it impossible to accept that this [the periodic table of elements... the evolution of life], is all a blind series of causes and effects. I therefore conclude that there is a pattern, and as such there is a maker of this pattern, and we are probably incapable of ever understanding what this is...”
I find this attitude difficult to understand. You have concluded that mathematically unlikely patterns have not occurred by accident and therefore must have been designed by a designer – hence a God must exist. I fail to see why you think that God is necessary. I think that, in believing in God, you're not thinking at all – you've stopped trying to understand and have metaphorically thrown up your hands in submission.
We exist in a quite astonishingly insignificant place. We live on a small ball of rock on an outer spiral arm of a galaxy that contains over two hundred billion stars. It is likely that almost every single one of these two hundred billion stars has at least one planet in orbit. Our own solar system has eight or nine planets depending on the contentious issue of Pluto. It doesn't take a mathematical genius to work out that this is potentially one hell of a lot of planets. There are billions of other galaxies and hence potentially trillions of other planets. We also have no idea if this is the only universe... we may be one of many.
What you find unlikely, I find as inevitable. No God is necessary.
I find this attitude difficult to understand. You have concluded that mathematically unlikely patterns have not occurred by accident and therefore must have been designed by a designer – hence a God must exist. I fail to see why you think that God is necessary. I think that, in believing in God, you're not thinking at all – you've stopped trying to understand and have metaphorically thrown up your hands in submission.
We exist in a quite astonishingly insignificant place. We live on a small ball of rock on an outer spiral arm of a galaxy that contains over two hundred billion stars. It is likely that almost every single one of these two hundred billion stars has at least one planet in orbit. Our own solar system has eight or nine planets depending on the contentious issue of Pluto. It doesn't take a mathematical genius to work out that this is potentially one hell of a lot of planets. There are billions of other galaxies and hence potentially trillions of other planets. We also have no idea if this is the only universe... we may be one of many.
What you find unlikely, I find as inevitable. No God is necessary.
Headline: Keyplus admits religion is a delusion!
beso ////Religion is the greatest mass delusion in the history of mankind.////
keyplus90 //// And people who have got out of this delusion are so satisfied and have so much inner peace that GPs have stopped prescribing antidepressants and pharmacists have sent all of the stocks back.////
Seriously, do you believe that atheists are the only people who ever get depressed? One in ten in the US is on antidepressants. One in five among the Jewish community.
How many are depressed because they fail to live up to the religious doctrine imposed on them as children?
beso ////Religion is the greatest mass delusion in the history of mankind.////
keyplus90 //// And people who have got out of this delusion are so satisfied and have so much inner peace that GPs have stopped prescribing antidepressants and pharmacists have sent all of the stocks back.////
Seriously, do you believe that atheists are the only people who ever get depressed? One in ten in the US is on antidepressants. One in five among the Jewish community.
How many are depressed because they fail to live up to the religious doctrine imposed on them as children?
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