God has been evicted from cosmology . . .

[mibn2cweus]

. . . so can we delete this topic now?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpb7NMR-XOo

[mibn2cweus]

The products of rational thought, technology, made accessible to those who use it to promote irrational ideologies, with "God on their side", has proven to be an explosive combination. Until the same rationality which has provided technological advancement is applied to promoting the well-being of only those who create and use it for the potential benefits it provides to living in peace in this life on this Earth rather then in the pursuit of the empty promise of rewards beyond the grave, we are all indeed in for a bumpy ride.

Reason, which has enabled us to discover our place in the universe and capacity to give meaning and purpose to our mutual existence remains our only hope for an antidote to the empty promises of the poisonous doctrines of faith. Reason, applied logic, makes no compromises to and strikes no bargains with irresponsible, irrational cherished self-delusions of any kind. It is the emergence of consciousness and reason that brings meaning and purpose to our mutual existence without which both exist in a meaningless purposeless void. It's an offer of a mutually beneficial relationship we neglect or refuse at the expense of what in either case we stand to gain or rightly deserve.

On this one point I strongly disagree with Professor Hawking. The universe is not a free lunch. It punishes or rewards us in proportion to our efforts to understand it and make the most of what it has to offer.

[naomi24]

Mibs, that looks interesting. I'll watch it when I get time (it's 42 minutes long) and come back to you.

[naomi24]

I've watched it, the mathematics work, and it's beautiful in its simplicity. However, I don't believe anything comes from nothing - even protons. The programme states that they pop in and out of existence - but do they really? Or is it that we don't know where they come from - or where they go?

I think it's a shame this video is now on page three, and I suspect a lot of people who would be interested in watching it may have missed it, so I'm going to re-post it.

[mibn2cweus]

I once read somewhere that black holes grow exponentially in size with relation to the mass they acquire and that as it turns out a black hole with the mass of our universe would be of comparable size. I've often suspected our universe might exist or have emerged from within a black hole in another universe that exists or existed beyond our event horizon.

Whatever the case might be I image it's going to be quite a challenge reassembly any puzzle pieces that survived the Big Bang to provide any evidence for the cause. All the same I find it fascinating to consider the possibility that we might be living inside a black hole.

By the way, my initial response in this thread was to someone with the username Spreading, - http://www.theanswerb...uk/members/Spreading/
but sorry, can't remember what he wrote that I was responding to.

[jake-the-peg]

You don't believe that anything comes from nothing Naomi?

That sounds like a religious position not that far removed from someone's belief in God.

Virtual particles *do* come in and out of existance - this has been demonstrated in the Casimir effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect

You may or may not choose to believe it, but it is the case.

I haven't had time to watch it all I might do later but there is a fundamental question to the Universe that even Professor Hawking doesn't have a good answer to.

This is why the Universe is so finely tuned for life. There are many constants in physics like the strength of Gravity, the charge on an electron, the mass of a proton etc.

We have no idea why they are set to the values they are - this is important because change some of them by even a bit and you get a Universe with no matter, let alone no life.

Many, and I thing Stephen Hawking is amoung them will say that there must be many Universes each with different values.

This is an answer but not a good one. It has been directly derived to answer this problem and there is no evidence for it, no any prospect of testing it.

It has simply been invented much like the concept of the Trinity to solve a doctrinal issue.

That's not to say that I think God set the constants but I do think sometimes people of making light of the weak areas in their argument. Yes I know religonists do it all the time but rationalists should be better than that

[RATTER15]

Fascinating!!! I admit to not understanding some of it but other parts made a lot of sense, certainly far more sense than the creator nonsense!

[mibn2cweus]

//This is why the Universe is so finely tuned for life. There are many constants in physics like the strength of Gravity, the charge on an electron, the mass of a proton etc.

We have no idea why they are set to the values they are - this is important because change some of them by even a bit and you get a Universe with no matter, let alone no life. //

Jake, Order emerges from out of chaos. Life and consciousness as we know it evolved given the conditions presented. Who's to say, a different form of life capable to achieving consciousness could not emerge given a totally different set of initial conditions? We just happen to be witness to the one we have ourselves evolved in.

[sith123]

as i said...its all theory

[mibn2cweus]

//as i said...its all theory//

Somehow I find it easier to believe you said it than that you admit it. :o/

What you neglected to mention is that some theories actually offer explanations which correspond beautifully with what we observe in reality without invoking the existence of unseen magical supernatural monsters mysteriously incapable of speaking for themselves.