Richard Dawkins/Christopher Hitchins and the Pope

[flip_flop]

A little late, so I apologise if this has already been posted.

Interesting article!

http://www.timesonlin...th/article7094310.ece

Opinions?

[joggerjayne]

They are right.

His Holiness has conspired to pervert the course of justice by covering up for people who have raped children.

In what parallel universe should He not be in prison ???

[Canary42]

Good for them.

[joggerjayne]

I have always had the highest respect for previous Popes.

But Ratzinger is a nasty little scumbag.

If the scandal had not come to light recently, He would still be covering up for His paedophile colleagues, and they would still be raping children.

[rov1200]

Thats the problem with religion. They take it into their heads they are God. Wasn't it Tony Blair who used religion to attack Iraq. Also Geo. Bush. By hearing voices that tell them to do things is one step away from the psychiatrists couch.

[joggerjayne]

But I do like the idea of a kindly, bearded person, watching over us ...

... rewarding those of us who are virtuous.

We used to call him "Father Christmas" !

[jake-the-peg]

for it to be a crime against humanity it must be part of a widespread or systematic practice.

And that must be tolerated or condoned by a government or a de facto authority.

Now you can make the case that the abuse was widespread but I'm not sure that I've seen anything at all firm that suggests that he knowingly tolerated widespread abuses.

I rather think that is what you'd have to show

[joggerjayne]

Well, he did send that letter forbidding anyone from passing the details of paedophile priests to the authorities, and saying that it was a matter for the Church to deal with in its own way ...

... ie, not at all !

[jake-the-peg]

That doesn't sound to me like sufficient evidence to try a man for crimes against humanity.

Not unless cynicism has suddenly become admissible in a court of law!

[birdie1971]

Jake – I see you're trying to suggest that the Church was unaware of the widespread abuse of children...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/...buse_report_publ.html

A quote from the above article...

“The Report is absolutely damning. It runs to some 700 pages and reveals both a shocking litany of abuse by priests in Dublin over a period of 35 years and the failure of both church and state authorities to respond appropriately to reports of child abuse. In addition to the abuse of children, the Murphy Report claims that the Catholic Church operated a "don't tell" policy and successive bishops and archbishops acted to cover up abuse claims.”

Everyone who knows anything about the Catholic Church also knows that child abuse was and most likely is still rife. You assertion that Ratzinger was unaware that child abuse was occurring is also incorrect.

[birdie1971]

Continued...

http://en.wikipedia.o...holic_sex_abuse_cases

From the above article...

“[The] late Bishop Manuel D. Moreno... repeatedly attempted to have two local abusive priests defrocked and disciplined, pleading unsuccessfully in a letter of April 1997 with Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger as head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith to have one of them... defrocked .”

As stated above, Ratzinger, prior to becoming Pope was head of the 'Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith'. The role of this 'office' within the Church is... “... to promote and safeguard the doctrine on the faith and morals throughout the Catholic world: for this reason everything which in any way touches such matter falls within its competence."

http://en.wikipedia.o...Doctrine_of_the_Faith


Clearly this office would be aware of the widespread abuse of children because that was it's main role. Ratzinger was head of this office... and you're suggesting he was blissfully ignorant?

[joggerjayne]

It is clear that Ratzinger refused to entertain the de-frocking of rapist priests.

He knew it was going on ... he had been asked to de-frock them ... he covered it up.

He protected child rapists.

And now ... he tells the world how to live a moral life !!!!!!!!!!!!

Purleeeeeez !

If some dirty old man down your road had helped protect paedophiles, what would your attitude be?

Have him arrested !

It's a no-brainer.

[modeller]

joggerjayne Did you mean it when you said you had "the highest repect for previous Popes "? How previous is previous ? It was the Popes who set up and maintained the InquIsition who was responsible for torture ,burning and the massacre of hundreds of thousands throughout the world. In Spain alone the Pope presided over the Inquisition which killed 60,000 through its courts.This went on until 1836 and then they changed the name. If you go into the Sistine Chapel you will see a picture commisioned by the Pope commemorating the Bartholomew Massacre when 25,000 Protestants were killed. Which are the Popes you have great repect for ?

[joggerjayne]

Modeller ...

I wasn't thinking of "Popes throughout the Ages" ... LOL

I was thinking more of Popes during my lifetime.

Pope Paul, I was only 15 when he died, and John Paul I wasn't around very long, so I suppose, mostly, John Paul II.

I'm not a Catholic, and I did not agree with their beliefs, but I still regarded those Popes as men of integrity, and faith, and sincerity.

Unfortunately, I cannot say the same for Benedict XVI.

Although it is true that a lot of abuse was going on during the papacy of John Paul II, there doesn't seem to be any documentary evidence of his complicity in covering it up. Indeed, on the contrary, it seems fair to say that the evidence of abuse stopped with, and was suppressed by, Cardinal Ratzinger (who is now Pope Benedict XVI).

[joggerjayne]

Just Googled the Popes ... Paul died in 1978, so I was only 12, so I'm only really talking about John Paul II.

[modeller]

Fair enough jogger I thought the word previous was suspect that's why I queried it. I think with all the Popes we should look at their actions when they were Cardinals because thats when they are closely involved with how the Bishops and priests behaved.
Ratzinger is special because he was head of the Inquisition ( Now called Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith ) and with special resonsibility for morality. We know he personally refused to defrock priests in case it weakened the church.
Having said that I think they are all to blame from priest to pope. The abuse is worldwide and required a worldwide cover up.