Serena Williams Could Beat The Men........right Oh!

[ToraToraTora]

[Mozz71]

Good grief Tora, you really are deluded by your sence of self importance aren't you?

There was no anger on my side of this discussion, but you seem desperate to turn a debate into an argument. I was giving an opinion, nothing more. Give your self righteousness a break for five minutes, eh?

[Mozz71]

And I know I misspelt sense, before anyone jumps on that

[naomi24]

ClareTG0ld, taking offence isn’t your sole domain. As a real woman I’m offended too - by the world that this issue is creating for real women.

[ToraToraTora]

doug: "'All over the place' doesn't even begin to cover this nonsense. " - care to explain what is "all over the place"? Unless of course you mean the idea that it's fair for men to compete in women's sports then bang on.

[ToraToraTora]

mozz; "Good grief Tora, you really are deluded by your sence of self importance aren't you?" - how so I', just backing up common sense.

"There was no anger on my side of this discussion, but you seem desperate to turn a debate into an argument. I was giving an opinion, nothing more. Give your self righteousness a break for five minutes, eh? " - then explain why you start with the twee coments when I challenge that McEnroe has more idea about his sport than you? 14:36, 14:40, wrong! 14:42 - improving...14:43 back tracking a little, starting to realise you are talking carp....14:48 twee sarcasm because Mac broke a racquet now and again....15:53, here it comes, I'm getting by April handed to me must fight back, he's probably right but can't let him think that, I know insulting generalisation, that'll do it....14:56, damn he's got me more sarcasm.......Did I miss anything

[ClareTG0ld]

// Ok lets say I accept that for a minute. Do you think they should be allowed to compete unfairly in women's sports? We are only talking about tennis on this thread but what about say boxing? //

Depends on what you mean by "unfairly", which strikes me as begging the question. I agree that there should be some amount of restrictions, based on, say, a minimum period of hormone therapy. Where I have a particular problem with many of the current rules is that they are firstly reactionary -- wildly exaggerating a fuss over a single result in order to change rules that had been arrived at after a lengthy consultation -- and secondly more than a little dishonest. Most of the outcry comes from people who don't even accept the legitimacy of being trans at all (see, eg, Naomi's comments of being trans as "hav[ing] a problem", or "living a lie"). In that case, the choice of sports as a battleground is convenient to try and "stop" the acceptance of transgender people in any walk of life. This also explains why some of the recent outcry concerns examples which either don't intersect with professional sports (one fuss about a transgender woman competing in a *charity* run, for example, is particularly manufactured), or don't intersect with sports where the chromosomal sex should matter.

As a clear minimum, anyone who has socially but not medically transitioned (male to female) ought to accept that they can't compete in strength-based professional sports, which includes tennis in the current example. I care a great deal about women's tennis, so I'm well aware of the differences between the men's and women's game, and of the history of transgender people in tennis -- there's basically only one of note, Renee Richards (the fact that there's only one shows to a good extent how manufactured all of this controversy is in the first place). In that sense, it's clear that most professional male tennis athletes would enjoy success beyond their ability if they competed in the women's game, whether that's because of allowing people to socially transition and compete without any medical intervention or by just abandoning the idea of separate men's and women's tours altogether.

But I despair at those who use sports as a proxy for debating all aspects of transgender life. It's a niche issue, and should never have received this much attention.

[ClareTG0ld]

// As a real woman I’m offended too - by the world that this issue is creating for real women.//

That may well be your position, but it isn't shared by any of the "real" women in my life.

[ToraToraTora]

CTG, finally a sensible discussion. I agree with many of your points.

[Mozz71]

You must have been missing me to have broke down my posts with such a lack of precision. Throughout our little debate, I have spoken my opinion.

And when I mentioned about you agreeing with McEnroe, you know I'm right. If (for example) Bjorn Borg had said that he thought Serena would beat a top 20 player, their previous tennis ability would not have been a factor in your condemnation of that opinion.

Please just accept that someone can have a different opinion to you without having to turn it into a drama.

[ToraToraTora]

Ok mozz, but I didn't "turn it into a drama" - you did that at 14:53.

[mushroom25]

transpeople make up less than 0.5% of the population. trans athletes make up an even smaller percentage of the population of sports people, nevertheless the societal drive towards equality and inclusivity means that ultimately there will be no gender specific sport. there will just be "sport"; if cis women can't compete, then it would be up to them to show commitment and train harder.

[naomi24]

ClareTG0ld, ‘legitimacy’? What does that mean? That trans people may legally describe themselves in whichever way they choose doesn’t mean that their choices accurately define who or what they really are. Defining oneself as the opposite sex renders that definition a lie because men are not women and never will be. That is a simple and incontrovertible fact of life. As for ‘trans’ not being a problem, it will no doubt surprise you to know that I have a ‘trans’ relation going through hormone therapy as we speak who fully acknowledges the problems that the situation emanates from, leads to, and results in. That person would disagree with your blanket, gung ho opinions. You do not speak for all.

I know you don’t like views that contradict your own but others really are just as entitled to their opinions - and at least as justified - if not more so - in taking offence. The ludicrous sports issue for which there really can be no legitimate argument offends me, as does the creeping erasure of real women, not least with all the ‘newspeak’ we’re expected to adopt - but I would never cry offence in an effort to silence discussion. This needs to be discussed - frankly and without the fully expected eggshells.

[ToraToraTora]

mush 16:03, you were heading for BA there, just ruined it with the unnecessary prefix for what is normal.

[ClareTG0ld]

// That trans people may legally describe themselves in whichever way they choose doesn’t mean that their choices accurately define who or what they really are. Defining oneself as the opposite sex renders that definition a lie because men are not women and never will be. //

The problem, though, is that you're conflating multiple things here. A person who (socially or legally) changes their gender isn't "lying" about what their chromosomal sex is.

// ... it will no doubt surprise you to know that I have a ‘trans’ relation going through hormone therapy as we speak who fully acknowledges the problems that the situation emanates from, leads to, and results in. //

A question I'd have about that is how this "full acknowledgement" of whatever problems you're thinking of affects how they'd interact or present socially; but, that aside, I'm well aware I don't "speak for all". Transgender people are not and never have been a single bloc; as a matter of fact, even the concession above that social transition ought to be a barrier for entry to certain sports might put me against some trans people's views. It's an ongoing debate both within and beyond the community, but I dare say at least all sides within the community would agree that it shouldn't be conflated with transgender discussions in general (a vain hope, perhaps).

// ... the creeping erasure of real women, not least with all the ‘newspeak’ we’re expected to adopt ... //

This, too, seems clearly wrong, or at least again massively overblown. Most, if not all, of the examples I've seen mentioned about so-called 'newspeak' surrounding transpeople amounts to little more than an acknowledgement of the alternative vocabulary -- or, more simply, a general advice to "know your audience" and to use language appropriate for the individual. It's the same when it comes to the "erasure of real women", which is not happening and is something that most transgender people would certainly not wish for anyway.

[bazwillrun]

She didnt on this occasion, nor did her sister....far from it

https://www.tennisnow.com/Blogs/NET-POSTS/November-2017-(1)/The-Man-Who-Beat-Venus-and-Serena-Back-to-Back.aspx

[naomi24]

ClareTG0ld, how easy to duck and dive when all appears to be loaded in your favour and none of it affects you adversely. I await your cries if ‘foul’ when the worm turns - as it surely must - when it will, without doubt - matter more to you.

[Zacs-Master]

I'm sure there was a thread on here years ago predicting that men would eventually become redundant. Now it seems they are threatening to infiltrate and nullify women in a number of fields. How strange eh!

[ClareTG0ld]

// ClareTG0ld, how easy to duck and dive when all appears to be loaded in your favour and none of it affects you adversely. //

Quite a lot of this debate could well "affect me adversely", in particular because the trend in modern political and media discourse is to be increasingly hostile towards transgender people. I would like to remind you of my answer at 15:36, though.

[naomi24]

ClareTG0ld, There’s an answer there - but I’ll leave it at that.

[royfromaus]

ClareTG0ld
// As a real woman I’m offended too - by the world that this issue is creating for real women.//

That may well be your position, but it isn't shared by any of the "real" women in my life.

_______________________________________

I don't believe that.