Crosswords5 mins ago
Time To Stop Accepting Mind Alteration?
292 Answers
I have been considering the effects of drugs - all drugs - and the reason people use them.
The conclusion I have reached is that every single person who uses any kind of drug - tobacco, cannabis, alcohol, cocaine, heroin, does so in pursuit of a level of mind alteration.
Only the amount consumed, and the desired effect vary, the initial reason is identical throughout - to alter the mind's perception of the present.
Now this can vary from a glass or two of wine at the end of the day, or at a party, or a cigarette to 'calm the nerves' right through to the desired temporary oblivion of a large dose of heroin.
Of course, as a culture, we have absorbed the first examples as simply cultural norms, accepted and even encouraged, less so the last one which remains illegal.
But my point is, the subliminal desire to alter the mind to whatever degree is present in all of them.
Now the first argument would be - 'I drink because I enjoy the taste ...'.
Fine, then you can drink non-alcoholic wine or beer and not notice any difference can't you.
But no, we persist with 'acceptable' drugs because we, as a culture, accept that mind alteration is an acceptable thing to have in our society.
My question is - is it acceptable?
Should we not look at educating children and young people - the adults of tomorrow - that mind alteration is actually not a good thing at all, and is in fact creating a false reality, and leading to death through dangerous driving, liver damage, psychosis, and all the other results of ingesting drugs.
Drugs are not good, and we should be looking at getting rid of them as acceptable in society.
Thoughts please?
The conclusion I have reached is that every single person who uses any kind of drug - tobacco, cannabis, alcohol, cocaine, heroin, does so in pursuit of a level of mind alteration.
Only the amount consumed, and the desired effect vary, the initial reason is identical throughout - to alter the mind's perception of the present.
Now this can vary from a glass or two of wine at the end of the day, or at a party, or a cigarette to 'calm the nerves' right through to the desired temporary oblivion of a large dose of heroin.
Of course, as a culture, we have absorbed the first examples as simply cultural norms, accepted and even encouraged, less so the last one which remains illegal.
But my point is, the subliminal desire to alter the mind to whatever degree is present in all of them.
Now the first argument would be - 'I drink because I enjoy the taste ...'.
Fine, then you can drink non-alcoholic wine or beer and not notice any difference can't you.
But no, we persist with 'acceptable' drugs because we, as a culture, accept that mind alteration is an acceptable thing to have in our society.
My question is - is it acceptable?
Should we not look at educating children and young people - the adults of tomorrow - that mind alteration is actually not a good thing at all, and is in fact creating a false reality, and leading to death through dangerous driving, liver damage, psychosis, and all the other results of ingesting drugs.
Drugs are not good, and we should be looking at getting rid of them as acceptable in society.
Thoughts please?
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I'll admit I've not read all the thread, it's gotten too long however I would ask you Andy on a personal note (and I never normally raise people's personal problems from the past) as you have mentioned enough times over the years of your past mental health issues that resulted in hospitalisation. Did you not try some of these legal and semi-illegal methods to ease the mind at the time? Many people probably use them as a private solution to help them to not end up in the very terrifying position you found yourself in back then?
Accepting this has formed one of the many long 'debates' for debate sake you like to have on AB it seems you are saying self-help should be frowned on and denied.
Accepting this has formed one of the many long 'debates' for debate sake you like to have on AB it seems you are saying self-help should be frowned on and denied.
Prudie...
andy hughes
Simple.
I never developed a taste for any alcoholic drink.
I worked behind a bar in my teens, and had a try of almost everything, and it literally all tasted the same to be - whiskey tastes like bitter, wine tastes like Guiness - I have no palate whatsoever.
I have drunk enough spirits to find out what being drunk feels like, and I didn't enjoy the lack of control, from the fuzzy relaxed feeling right through to throwing up all night.
So the taste, and effect of alcohol is something I have never enjoyed.
But - and this is the reason for my OP - the effects of drugs on people I find interesting.
andy hughes
Simple.
I never developed a taste for any alcoholic drink.
I worked behind a bar in my teens, and had a try of almost everything, and it literally all tasted the same to be - whiskey tastes like bitter, wine tastes like Guiness - I have no palate whatsoever.
I have drunk enough spirits to find out what being drunk feels like, and I didn't enjoy the lack of control, from the fuzzy relaxed feeling right through to throwing up all night.
So the taste, and effect of alcohol is something I have never enjoyed.
But - and this is the reason for my OP - the effects of drugs on people I find interesting.
A-H; going back to your OP, you seem to be saying that you disapprove of people taking drugs (or other similar mind-altering stimulants) and then you ask us whether or not we think it acceptable that it should be allowed to continue.
I think it's a rather pointless question. You have managed to get a discussion of some sort going (flurry of opinions), but it's going nowhere. Did you really expect it to?
I think it's a rather pointless question. You have managed to get a discussion of some sort going (flurry of opinions), but it's going nowhere. Did you really expect it to?
Given that Andy dismissed my suggestion that he might have had some personal reasons for being so fervently anti-drugs/drink makes me wonder why it matters to him so much. If someone drinks in the privacy of their own home, or has a puff on something, whether legal or not, what's the big deal? Nobody else is being harmed.
Mozz, I suppose you could claim that the NHS staff are being harmed by your self-neglect, or your family is being harmed by your neglect of them, or that innocent young women are being harmed by your unleashed bestial instincts, or that God is being harmed by your neglect of your duty to worship him.... and so it goes.
Anyway, I think it's an issue that means something to A-H, and less to me.
Maybe simpler for item 3 above to castrate all males, just in case they are nasty beggars.
Life isn't simple and we shouldn't seek simple solutions.
Anyway, I think it's an issue that means something to A-H, and less to me.
Maybe simpler for item 3 above to castrate all males, just in case they are nasty beggars.
Life isn't simple and we shouldn't seek simple solutions.
Only if you let these issues grind you down, Mozz.
I've enough to ponder when I settle down to sleep, without stressing about A-H's issues.
I say, enjoy yourself when you get the chance, don't eat too much, get a bit of exercise, read a good book now and then, try not to get too cross about anything, and if possible stay away from AB.
Of course, I don't do what I say!
I've enough to ponder when I settle down to sleep, without stressing about A-H's issues.
I say, enjoy yourself when you get the chance, don't eat too much, get a bit of exercise, read a good book now and then, try not to get too cross about anything, and if possible stay away from AB.
Of course, I don't do what I say!
Prudie - //
Mark as Best Answer
I'll admit I've not read all the thread, it's gotten too long however I would ask you Andy on a personal note (and I never normally raise people's personal problems from the past) as you have mentioned enough times over the years of your past mental health issues that resulted in hospitalisation. Did you not try some of these legal and semi-illegal methods to ease the mind at the time? Many people probably use them as a private solution to help them to not end up in the very terrifying position you found yourself in back then? //
I think a time-line may help here.
I became a barman when I was eighteen, I stopped being a barman when I was twenty. During that time I had a try of most of the mainstream alcoholic drinks, and didn't enjoy any of them.
When I was twenty-six, at a party, I decided to see what being 'drunk' was like.
Over the course of the evening I consumed enough alcohol (vodka and Coke, I don't like either, but I made the effort) to go through the 'relaxed' phase, through to the violent illness phase.
Since I didn't enjoy any of the experience at all, I didn't touch alcohol again.
I was hospitalised at thirty-five, and I didn't try any legal or illegal substances to help me - only the prescribed medication I was given.
// Accepting this has formed one of the many long 'debates' for debate sake you like to have on AB it seems you are saying self-help should be frowned on and denied. //
I don;t believe self help should be frowned on and denied, I have never said, or inferred any such notion.
What I have done is pose an abstract question for the purposes of discussion, nothing more than that.
Mark as Best Answer
I'll admit I've not read all the thread, it's gotten too long however I would ask you Andy on a personal note (and I never normally raise people's personal problems from the past) as you have mentioned enough times over the years of your past mental health issues that resulted in hospitalisation. Did you not try some of these legal and semi-illegal methods to ease the mind at the time? Many people probably use them as a private solution to help them to not end up in the very terrifying position you found yourself in back then? //
I think a time-line may help here.
I became a barman when I was eighteen, I stopped being a barman when I was twenty. During that time I had a try of most of the mainstream alcoholic drinks, and didn't enjoy any of them.
When I was twenty-six, at a party, I decided to see what being 'drunk' was like.
Over the course of the evening I consumed enough alcohol (vodka and Coke, I don't like either, but I made the effort) to go through the 'relaxed' phase, through to the violent illness phase.
Since I didn't enjoy any of the experience at all, I didn't touch alcohol again.
I was hospitalised at thirty-five, and I didn't try any legal or illegal substances to help me - only the prescribed medication I was given.
// Accepting this has formed one of the many long 'debates' for debate sake you like to have on AB it seems you are saying self-help should be frowned on and denied. //
I don;t believe self help should be frowned on and denied, I have never said, or inferred any such notion.
What I have done is pose an abstract question for the purposes of discussion, nothing more than that.
Atheist - // A-H; going back to your OP, you seem to be saying that you disapprove of people taking drugs (or other similar mind-altering stimulants) and then you ask us whether or not we think it acceptable that it should be allowed to continue. //
I can;t help what you think I 'seem to be saying', I can only tell you what I am saying.
I put forward a thought about cultural norms and accepted behaviour and asked if anyone thought we should act in a different way, for the good of society as a whole.
I did not at any time say that I either approve or disapprove, merely that I have observed it, and thought about it, and asked what other people thought about it.
// I think it's a rather pointless question. You have managed to get a discussion of some sort going (flurry of opinions), but it's going nowhere. Did you really expect it to? //
On reflection, the idea that people might discuss what I offered objectively was obviously too much to hope for.
What I have received is a couple of honest answers pertinent to the point a made, considerably more unpleasant and personal abuse, and a couple of people trying and failing to be amusing for their and others' amusement.
It is going nowhere, but I will continue to respond to any answers that are on point, and polite - any others will be ignored.
I can;t help what you think I 'seem to be saying', I can only tell you what I am saying.
I put forward a thought about cultural norms and accepted behaviour and asked if anyone thought we should act in a different way, for the good of society as a whole.
I did not at any time say that I either approve or disapprove, merely that I have observed it, and thought about it, and asked what other people thought about it.
// I think it's a rather pointless question. You have managed to get a discussion of some sort going (flurry of opinions), but it's going nowhere. Did you really expect it to? //
On reflection, the idea that people might discuss what I offered objectively was obviously too much to hope for.
What I have received is a couple of honest answers pertinent to the point a made, considerably more unpleasant and personal abuse, and a couple of people trying and failing to be amusing for their and others' amusement.
It is going nowhere, but I will continue to respond to any answers that are on point, and polite - any others will be ignored.
Mozz - // Given that Andy dismissed my suggestion that he might have had some personal reasons for being so fervently anti-drugs/drink makes me wonder why it matters to him so much. //
At the risk of sounding like a cracked record, if you have read all my responses you will have learned that - I am not 'fervently' anti-drink and drugs at all. I simply asked an abstract question for people to think about and discuss, and as I have already said, clearly that was a pointless endevour.
// If someone drinks in the privacy of their own home, or has a puff on something, whether legal or not, what's the big deal? Nobody else is being harmed. //
Again, if you refer to the OP, my point was that people take their drug of choice in a social situation, in order to feel more comofrtable in that situation.
So anyone taking their drug at home does not enter into the point I am making.
At the risk of sounding like a cracked record, if you have read all my responses you will have learned that - I am not 'fervently' anti-drink and drugs at all. I simply asked an abstract question for people to think about and discuss, and as I have already said, clearly that was a pointless endevour.
// If someone drinks in the privacy of their own home, or has a puff on something, whether legal or not, what's the big deal? Nobody else is being harmed. //
Again, if you refer to the OP, my point was that people take their drug of choice in a social situation, in order to feel more comofrtable in that situation.
So anyone taking their drug at home does not enter into the point I am making.
Nevera - // A-H, I think your sweeping generalisations - such as 'every single person...' and 'we accept that mind alteration is an acceptable thing' meant that there was very little chance of a reasoned debate... on what could have been an interesting subject. //
If you'd made that point at the beginning of the thread instead of now when it has run out of steam, we could have discussed it.
But to be honest, I am simply keeping an eye open for any sensible points or questions, I really don't have the energy to deal with the fact that the majority of people are either offensive, or don't read what I post, or read what I post, completely misinterpret what it means, and then attack me for something I didn't say, or in some case, all three.
If you'd made that point at the beginning of the thread instead of now when it has run out of steam, we could have discussed it.
But to be honest, I am simply keeping an eye open for any sensible points or questions, I really don't have the energy to deal with the fact that the majority of people are either offensive, or don't read what I post, or read what I post, completely misinterpret what it means, and then attack me for something I didn't say, or in some case, all three.
Not sure Ive read the whole thread correctly , or should even dare reply but I’ll give it a go lol.
Ok, I’ve never touched drugs in my life. I’ve never smoked in my life. But I do enjoy a drink in the evenings. I used to love spirits with a mixer ie vodka /coke etc, but after I lost my sense of smell completely it seemed to affect my taste too, in that I couldn’t taste alcohol as much as I used to and so it would affect me quicker as I wasn’t really tasting what I was drinking. So I gave up spirits completely a few years ago. Now, if I drink it is white wine only. I gave up red wine too as I simply didn’t like it anymore. If I have any wine at all it’s simply to relax at the end of the day - I don’t drink it to get drunk/pass out etc, but just to feel a tad more relaxed. Does that make sense??
Ok, I’ve never touched drugs in my life. I’ve never smoked in my life. But I do enjoy a drink in the evenings. I used to love spirits with a mixer ie vodka /coke etc, but after I lost my sense of smell completely it seemed to affect my taste too, in that I couldn’t taste alcohol as much as I used to and so it would affect me quicker as I wasn’t really tasting what I was drinking. So I gave up spirits completely a few years ago. Now, if I drink it is white wine only. I gave up red wine too as I simply didn’t like it anymore. If I have any wine at all it’s simply to relax at the end of the day - I don’t drink it to get drunk/pass out etc, but just to feel a tad more relaxed. Does that make sense??
Naomi - My argument would indeed be flawed if your behaviour was the template for the entire adult population of the Western world.
But, brace yourself, I'm not actually entirely sure that it is.
Some people may, and you'd better sit down for this, behave differently than you.
See you when you've absorbed that huge surprise.
But, brace yourself, I'm not actually entirely sure that it is.
Some people may, and you'd better sit down for this, behave differently than you.
See you when you've absorbed that huge surprise.
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