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Why are Anglicans worried?
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A number of bigoted priests and senior clergymen, who are against the idea of women bishops and are also homophobic, are leaving the Anglican church to join Roman Catholicism where such despicable attitudes are considered a virtue.
Why is the Anglican church worried about this? Shouldn't it be glad to be rid of such people?
Why is the Anglican church worried about this? Shouldn't it be glad to be rid of such people?
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So, anyone who sees the practice of homosexuality (i.e. sex) as immoral is homophobic, regardless of their reasoning ? So, that would include almost all branches of Christianity (including the Anglicans), Islam, Judaism and no doubt several other religions.
You may not agree with their reasoning, but that does not make them homophobic. Still I guess it's a nice gobstopper of a word to throw around when someone disagrees with you.
You may not agree with their reasoning, but that does not make them homophobic. Still I guess it's a nice gobstopper of a word to throw around when someone disagrees with you.
If the shoe fits . . . http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_phob.htm
The Anglican church is worried by falling numbers and is clearly concerned that even more of the not-so-faithful will jump ship.
In response to Jaydah, I think the exodus is more likely to be as a result of Leviticus than the New Testament. How can a church decide to break rules laid down by God just because it suits the current society's lifestyle?
In response to Jaydah, I think the exodus is more likely to be as a result of Leviticus than the New Testament. How can a church decide to break rules laid down by God just because it suits the current society's lifestyle?
Every other major form of religion in the world refuses to sanction female clergy or homosexuality Chakka. By your token then, almost everyone in the world is a bigot - except you! The fact is, most religions in the world still have basic standards of decency they believe in maintaining. Have you been to an Islamic country or spoken to Muslims in the UK? Islam doesn't even regard homosexuals as human. Women and female creatures are generally regarded as 'unclean' as they menstruate. If you want to take issue with those age-old views then you take issue with Judaism, Islam and every other culture and religion in the world.
I get sick and tired of closed-minded and unpleasant people like you using terms such as 'bigot' whenever it suits. A bigot is someone who has a fixed opinion and refuses to accept that anyone else has a different opinion. The bigot will refuse to recognise or respect that different opinion or the fact that someone has a right to express an alternate view. When a person is open-minded they listen, accept and respect different viewpoints.
You are a classic bigot Chakka! You have your own fixed and narrow views which you then expect everyone else to agree with. If they don't, then not only do you refuse to accept and respect those different views, but you curl your top lip, twist your facr and lash out with vicious comments. It's unpleasant individuals like you that have so damaged the wonderful free society we used to enjoy and pride ourselves on in this country.
I get sick and tired of closed-minded and unpleasant people like you using terms such as 'bigot' whenever it suits. A bigot is someone who has a fixed opinion and refuses to accept that anyone else has a different opinion. The bigot will refuse to recognise or respect that different opinion or the fact that someone has a right to express an alternate view. When a person is open-minded they listen, accept and respect different viewpoints.
You are a classic bigot Chakka! You have your own fixed and narrow views which you then expect everyone else to agree with. If they don't, then not only do you refuse to accept and respect those different views, but you curl your top lip, twist your facr and lash out with vicious comments. It's unpleasant individuals like you that have so damaged the wonderful free society we used to enjoy and pride ourselves on in this country.
Whatever reason they are defecting from CofE to Catholic for,I think they are in for a shock.
They imagine that the Catholic church they are joining is that church as it was 100 years ago,whereas it has moved(albeit very slightly) into the modern world.
I am also not sure how they think they will fit into the hierarcy of the Catholic church?
Personally I think they will find themselves in a kind of religious limbo,which is probably where they deserve to be.
Throwing their CofE vows and sacrament vessels out of the church pram comes to mind!
They imagine that the Catholic church they are joining is that church as it was 100 years ago,whereas it has moved(albeit very slightly) into the modern world.
I am also not sure how they think they will fit into the hierarcy of the Catholic church?
Personally I think they will find themselves in a kind of religious limbo,which is probably where they deserve to be.
Throwing their CofE vows and sacrament vessels out of the church pram comes to mind!
I forget to add....
The Anglican church has shown over the last two decades that it ha completely lost it's way. The Anglican clergy admitted this 20 years ago when it suggested stopping falling church numbers by admitting women and homosexual clergy. Do you not remember that? Since then, the Anglicans have thrown every standard of decency out the window. Anything goes now and the church accepts anyone and anything - just so long as they can stop the falling attendances. I was baptised into the CofE - but I've turned my back on the church. I still want to be a member of a church andf I have considered converting one day to Roman Catholicism - and even Islam! At least those religions maintain the standards you seem to deplore.
The Anglican church has shown over the last two decades that it ha completely lost it's way. The Anglican clergy admitted this 20 years ago when it suggested stopping falling church numbers by admitting women and homosexual clergy. Do you not remember that? Since then, the Anglicans have thrown every standard of decency out the window. Anything goes now and the church accepts anyone and anything - just so long as they can stop the falling attendances. I was baptised into the CofE - but I've turned my back on the church. I still want to be a member of a church andf I have considered converting one day to Roman Catholicism - and even Islam! At least those religions maintain the standards you seem to deplore.
Sorry Invictas.
The other major religions still maintain standards as official policy. Of course there are always individuals in the system who abuse that - there are in any system. The important thing is that the official policy remains.
It's not a matter of throwing toys out of the pram. Don't be so crass! People have standards which they have a right to stand up for. It's called voting with your feet. There are so many evils in Western society now and it's destroying the wonderful culture the rest of the world always sought to emulate. Homosexuality is a disgusting evil - especially when young children are exposed to homosexuality by the media and teachers who tell them there is nothing wrong with such perversions. Huge numbers of women have sex with whichever man asks for it and there are so many unmarried mothers with illegitimate children who are condemned to a life of poverty and never knowing what it is to live with their father. At least religions like Islam seek to protect their women and children by not allowing that degeneracy.
The other major religions still maintain standards as official policy. Of course there are always individuals in the system who abuse that - there are in any system. The important thing is that the official policy remains.
It's not a matter of throwing toys out of the pram. Don't be so crass! People have standards which they have a right to stand up for. It's called voting with your feet. There are so many evils in Western society now and it's destroying the wonderful culture the rest of the world always sought to emulate. Homosexuality is a disgusting evil - especially when young children are exposed to homosexuality by the media and teachers who tell them there is nothing wrong with such perversions. Huge numbers of women have sex with whichever man asks for it and there are so many unmarried mothers with illegitimate children who are condemned to a life of poverty and never knowing what it is to live with their father. At least religions like Islam seek to protect their women and children by not allowing that degeneracy.
Sorry Andyvon, I have to disagree with you - homosexuality is not /// a disgusting evil ///. While the Catholic church sees homosexual acts as a grave depravity and sinful, it also says that unjust discrimination towards homosexuals should be avoided.
Mind, I also can't accept the definition of homophobic on the site posted by mibn2cweus which seems to boil down to "if I as a homosexual percieve you, as an individual/organisation/institution/whatever, advocating anything which I see as opposing what I consider to be my rights, you as an individual are a homphobe and you as an organisation/institution/whatever are homophobic". Hardly tolerant and not very likely to allow any meaningful discussion to proceed.
Mind, I also can't accept the definition of homophobic on the site posted by mibn2cweus which seems to boil down to "if I as a homosexual percieve you, as an individual/organisation/institution/whatever, advocating anything which I see as opposing what I consider to be my rights, you as an individual are a homphobe and you as an organisation/institution/whatever are homophobic". Hardly tolerant and not very likely to allow any meaningful discussion to proceed.
As an Anglican of over 50 years' sentient experience, I would suggest that many of those wishing to convert to Rome are less than 'homophobic'. Gin, lace, incense, backbiting and covert homosexual shenanigans have long been the hallmark of the 'Catholic' wing of the C of E. Having said that, I have been privileged to know many happily married priests, non-drinking, of the High Church persuasion. Until I was in my mid-teens it did not matter which church you went to - the formulary was the same (BCP). The only way you could distinguish a High churchman from a Low churchman was during the Creed when at the 'Incarnatus' half the congregation would fall to their knees until the 'Resurrexit', whilst others would remain standing. This was discouraged under Archbishop Michael Ramsay, and I can still hear my vicar, nearly fifty years later, proclaiming from the pulpit that, 'One no longer has to kneel, one merely bows'. Shortly afterwards the BCP was shunted into the sidelines, resulting in the grim 'liturgy' which now passes for worship in the C of E.
ps. the other way of telling a High Churchman from a Low one was that whenever the name of the Blessed Trinity was invoked, those of the high persuasion would make the sign of the cross.
ps. the other way of telling a High Churchman from a Low one was that whenever the name of the Blessed Trinity was invoked, those of the high persuasion would make the sign of the cross.
Andyvon, //I have considered converting one day to Roman Catholicism - and even Islam! At least those religions maintain the standards you seem to deplore.//
What like turning a blind eye to babies born diseased because the church's ban on the use of condoms, or obeying Sharia Law regardless of its attitude to women?
That aside, how can a devout Christian consider converting to Islam when that religion promotes an entirely different philosophy? You either believe Christ died for your sins or you don't. Surely something that fundamental to Christianity cannot be a matter of choice?
What like turning a blind eye to babies born diseased because the church's ban on the use of condoms, or obeying Sharia Law regardless of its attitude to women?
That aside, how can a devout Christian consider converting to Islam when that religion promotes an entirely different philosophy? You either believe Christ died for your sins or you don't. Surely something that fundamental to Christianity cannot be a matter of choice?
Gosh, Andyvon, I enjoyed your tirade. No, honestly, it is that sort of indignation that gives life to this site.
Alas, though, you misunderstand bigotry. It is not, as you claim, a refusal to accept another person's argument or being unpleasant (a charge against me which I hope veterans of this site will know to be unjustified) but an adherance to fixed dogma however irrational that dogma is.
Homosexuality is a minority form of sexuality, just as left-handedness or redheadness are minority forms of handedness and hair colour. To regard homosexuality as anything other than that - so that its adherents have as much right to privacy and respect for their practices behind the bedroom door as we heterosexuals have - is to be impertinent and to give obeisance to the unknown Jew who wrote the edict in Leviticus against te practice. That is bigotry.
There is not the slightest scriptural reason why women should not be priests and bishops in the Anglican church. RC and extremist dogma says that they must not. That is bigotry - the adherence to a fixed view which no basis in fact and commonsense.
And you didn't answer my question...
Alas, though, you misunderstand bigotry. It is not, as you claim, a refusal to accept another person's argument or being unpleasant (a charge against me which I hope veterans of this site will know to be unjustified) but an adherance to fixed dogma however irrational that dogma is.
Homosexuality is a minority form of sexuality, just as left-handedness or redheadness are minority forms of handedness and hair colour. To regard homosexuality as anything other than that - so that its adherents have as much right to privacy and respect for their practices behind the bedroom door as we heterosexuals have - is to be impertinent and to give obeisance to the unknown Jew who wrote the edict in Leviticus against te practice. That is bigotry.
There is not the slightest scriptural reason why women should not be priests and bishops in the Anglican church. RC and extremist dogma says that they must not. That is bigotry - the adherence to a fixed view which no basis in fact and commonsense.
And you didn't answer my question...
Interesting stuff, Andyvon.
Invictas, re the hierarchy, I think I heard that those moving to RC will not fit into existing structures, I heard that they will move to their own "section" (presumably some sort of probationary period?) - does anyone else understand that too? I don't have strong feelings either way but find it interesting - if you convert to Islam or Christianity you are welcomed straight into the full-blown version of the faith, not sit slightly alongside until the next stage!
Invictas, re the hierarchy, I think I heard that those moving to RC will not fit into existing structures, I heard that they will move to their own "section" (presumably some sort of probationary period?) - does anyone else understand that too? I don't have strong feelings either way but find it interesting - if you convert to Islam or Christianity you are welcomed straight into the full-blown version of the faith, not sit slightly alongside until the next stage!
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