Can this savage religion ever be acceptible?

[R1Geezer]

http://tinyurl.com/38joavr
Then kill even their own relatives over some percieved "dishonour". Does anyone find this part particularly chilling?
"....However, it is claimed Gul Wazir and his wife thought the match was unsuitable for a number of reasons..."? Err what about their respective nephews/neices? did they consider that they might like a say in whether or to whom they are married? Barbarism pure and simple!

[andy-hughes]

It's not a 'savage' religion - it's a religion which some people bend out of all reasonable shape to fit their own nasty and in this case, murderous self-aggrandisement.

But that applies to all faiths - Spanish Inquisition anyone?

If yoiu create a faith, someone somewhere will twist it to allow themselves to be seen as holier than anyone else - that's not faith, that's human nature.

[ummmm]

Why does the Pope and Catholics always get dragged into religious discussions?

[andy-hughes]

Because if a church and its titular head live any further away from reality, with its twelfth century belief systems coupled with a wilful arrogance and refusasl to see the giant hypocracy in its teaching as against its activities, I and many other on here, have yet to find it.

[bibblebub]

naomi24 - I think that anyone who lets a religion rule their life is living in the dark ages. Unfortunately a great many people in the world are indoctrinated into one religion or another from the moment that they are born, surrounded by the associated practices and imagery every hour of the day for years on end. And thus these nonsenses carry on from one generation to another.

Unless it directly affects me then I'm not particularly bothered whether the morality of one religion is any better than that of another. In fact the only religious thing that directly affects me is our dreary national anthem that gets played at every international sporting event, and I try to ignore that completely.

[eyethenkyew]

This is so called "honour killing" allegedly because the victims refused to let their daughters marry the sons of their killers.

I think that in this country we'd call it "murder" .... wouldn't we?.....we still have murder as a capital offence, do we not? .....You know, the unlawful taking of the life of another human being?

[Gromit]

Geezer, Did you read your own link. The first sentence is:

// A British couple shot dead in Pakistan were NOT VICTIMS OF AN HONOUR KILLING but a revenge attack by relatives after they refused a marriage proposal for their daughters, it has been claimed. //

[naomi24]

bibblebub, // I think that anyone who lets a religion rule their life is living in the dark ages. //

So do I - and that was the point I was making.

[sp1814]

I've noticed something odd - perhaps someone could explain why some on this site refer to Muslims as one homogeonous group - like all Muslims all over the world all believe the same things.

Doe Habib who runs our local 24 hour supermarket and comes from Pakistan have exactly the same outlook on life as (for example) a Muslim fisherman from Ski Lanka?

Do people feel more at ease simply defaulting to a standardized version of racial and/or religious groups???

[sp1814]

To clarify...


When I think 'Catholic' - I don't really have a image in mind...because there are so many different flavours of Catholicism - from Irish dockers who work in New Jersey, to Italian lawyers who work in the suburbs of Rome.

So what is it about Muslims that blinkers (some) people?

Is it because the right wing press want to simplify everything for their readship (black and white is so much easier to report than a multitude of greys).

[keyplus90]

////It's silly for anyone to deny that within some Islamic societies this practice is accepted - and often expected///

Naomi Society, culture and religion are all different things. As far as Islam is concerned then its basic teachings should be above any cultural beliefs especially these sorts. Having said that I know you would not be able to find a SINGLE WORD condoning such action from two main sources of Islamic teachings (Quran and Hadith). For that reason I would not ask that but please provide me any link to prove your point where someone Known to and respected by more than 10 people in any society who said that it is OK to kill your daughter for just marrying someone who you do not like.

What Islamic society these two belong to?

http://www.thestar.co...-honour-killings?bn=1

[birdie1971]

Hi Keyplus.

Before I start, I have to warn you that this is a long post. I know you don't like them but this is not an easy subject to cover in a couple of sentences...

You're right. I can't find a single quote in either the Koran or the Hadiths that specifically states that it's fine and dandy to kill your daughter for marrying someone you don't like. I also can't find a single quote in the Koran that specifically states that stoning someone to death is permissible either. However, execution by stoning and honour killings are both practised within Islamic controlled states. But why, if they're not in the Koran?

The answer lies (yet again) in the 'fine art' of scriptural interpretation. The Koran has this to say about the punishment of woman for the 'crime' of being lewd [def: preoccupied with sex and sexual desire; lustful; obscene; indecent] …, “Koran - 4:15 'If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four (reliable) witness from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them. Or God ordain for them some (other) way.' ”

[birdie1971]

Continued....

The above quote quite clearly gives permission to kill a women who is within your control if she is deemed to be “lustful”. It doesn't take a great leap of imagination to see how this verse could be (and is) interpreted in Islamic teachings as condoning the murder women who marry (and who therefore have sex with) an unsuitable person. There are a great many other Koranic quotes that describe women as being less intelligent and less trustworthy than men. This leads a great many Muslim men to believe that they are divinely entitled to control women. All of these misogynistic quotes when taken as a whole, become more than the sum of their parts. They lead inexorably to a culture of patriarchy.

This is how religious teachings become part of a society's culture.


I accept that honour killings are not the unique preserve of the Islamic religion. They occur within just about every group imaginable and are utterly deplorable in both their logic and their savagery.

However, that being said, it is rather disingenuous of you Keyplus, to suggest that honour killings are an anathema to the Islamic faith when the writings of the Koran and the Hadiths repeatedly suggest and imply that women are inferior to men. Once you establish that method of thinking, it's very easy to prescribe all sorts of ghastly punishments for women who are deemed to be acting dishonourably.

[naomi24]

Keyplus, //As far as Islam is concerned then its basic teachings should be above any cultural beliefs especially these sorts.//

I know there's a difference between society, culture and religion, and yes, Islamic teachings should be above such cultural beliefs, but when Islamic literature openly promotes male superiority and gives men the right to chastise their women for any perceived wrong doing, it cannot be absolved of all responsibility for interpretation - whatever society it's taught in. If the teachers within these societies were conveying the right message, honour killings wouldn't be accepted - or expected. Although you might not respect the people who teach this, others do, and they cling on to their every word - and therefore this abomination continues.

[R1Geezer]

come on gromit, that's just a standard press device to avoid offence. Of course it was an honour killing.

[keyplus90]

Thanks for warning me about long post and then for admitting that there is nothing in Quran and Hadith. Then (as usual) you have twisted the subject to a totally different direction. Clearly there is huge difference between MARRIAGE (having sex after you commit yourself to someone through pains and pleasures, which is less known in the West) and ADULTERY (aka lust and just having sex for the sake of sex with no responsibility before and afterward, which is widespread in the west). So for that reason your post is very much understandable. As for other RANTS about women being inferior, oppressed, not believed to be equal, and so, so , so. Have I heard that all before? Let me think.

Naomi- You may read the last bit I said above or perhaps (yet once again) turn the clock back on your own posts and remind me why there are majority of women accepting Islam in the west (where women are supposed to have already been liberated)? Surely they are making wrong choice if Islam treats women so badly. I remember once asking you to be more active (apart from just being a pixel on AB) and pull these poor women back.

[naomi24]

Keyplus, //Then (as usual) you have twisted the subject to a totally different direction. //

^^ Ha ha! You're doing precisely what you've accused Birdie of. No relevant answer again then.

[keyplus90]

Perhaps you too do not understand difference between marriage and adultery. Or perhaps there is no difference for few people as afterall sex is sex.

[naomi24]

Oops! As expected, no answer so here come the insults! Nice try Keyplus, but you're still avoiding the issue.

[keyplus90]

Oh, I am really shocked to hear that as I am not used to this. Perhaps.