So A Senior Labour Minister With His...
News6 mins ago
Them Muslims
71 Answers
What is it with the Muslims?
From this,
http://rt.com/Top_New...sts-hit-dagestan.html
To this,
http://rt.com/Top_New...s-against-terror.html
Which one is the true face of Islam?
Or is it really just a question of your own personal prejudices?
From this,
http://rt.com/Top_New...sts-hit-dagestan.html
To this,
http://rt.com/Top_New...s-against-terror.html
Which one is the true face of Islam?
Or is it really just a question of your own personal prejudices?
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//My suggestion is that you're contempt for people of an opposite view is equal to that of any evangelist etc.//
So if that's really your opinion, which I doubt, why do you support religion regardless of what it does, and consistently oppose anyone who dares to criticise it? And this isn't the first time I've asked you this question. I wonder if I'll get an answer this time.
So if that's really your opinion, which I doubt, why do you support religion regardless of what it does, and consistently oppose anyone who dares to criticise it? And this isn't the first time I've asked you this question. I wonder if I'll get an answer this time.
Your contention is wrong.
I defend anyone's right to be different, just because I disagree with them doesn't give me the right to dictate or pontificate to them (or they me), I try to understand why certain people behave in certain ways so that I can make sense of them.
I'll give you a well worn out example, I dislike the burkha, I know exactly why I dislike the burkha, but I defend their right to wear it, because it's my problem that they do.
Just in case you're still bemused, I'll roll out an even older argument, "I disagree with what you're saying, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."
I defend anyone's right to be different, just because I disagree with them doesn't give me the right to dictate or pontificate to them (or they me), I try to understand why certain people behave in certain ways so that I can make sense of them.
I'll give you a well worn out example, I dislike the burkha, I know exactly why I dislike the burkha, but I defend their right to wear it, because it's my problem that they do.
Just in case you're still bemused, I'll roll out an even older argument, "I disagree with what you're saying, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."
123everton – You stated, “Islam is a much maligned faith, I wonder how much of this problem is due in no small part to mild form of brain washing.”
I agree that Islam is a much maligned faith. There is a very good reason for it being so. Can you guess what it is?
As for brainwashing, I read the Koran long before I held a strong opinion about it. I did the same with the Bible. I came to the conclusion that both faiths are based on little or no evidence and yet both proclaim to know absolute truths about the unknowable. Both are vile books as they glorify and revel in violence – something anyone can see if they take the time and trouble to read them.
I agree with you that not all Muslims are bad people. To suggest otherwise would be absurd. But when I criticise religion, I am doing precisely that – I am criticising the belief system, not the individual who foolishly follows it. Being foolish is not the same as being evil. As I stated earlier in the form of a quote, evil people are evil people regardless of their religion. But otherwise decent people can and sometimes are forced to commit the most appallingly violent acts because their religions instructs them to do so and tells them that they are permitted to do so.
Any belief system that can tell a person that they have the 'right' to murder another person because of their belief or lack of belief is a thoroughly evil belief system. How can you possibly defend such a system?
I agree that Islam is a much maligned faith. There is a very good reason for it being so. Can you guess what it is?
As for brainwashing, I read the Koran long before I held a strong opinion about it. I did the same with the Bible. I came to the conclusion that both faiths are based on little or no evidence and yet both proclaim to know absolute truths about the unknowable. Both are vile books as they glorify and revel in violence – something anyone can see if they take the time and trouble to read them.
I agree with you that not all Muslims are bad people. To suggest otherwise would be absurd. But when I criticise religion, I am doing precisely that – I am criticising the belief system, not the individual who foolishly follows it. Being foolish is not the same as being evil. As I stated earlier in the form of a quote, evil people are evil people regardless of their religion. But otherwise decent people can and sometimes are forced to commit the most appallingly violent acts because their religions instructs them to do so and tells them that they are permitted to do so.
Any belief system that can tell a person that they have the 'right' to murder another person because of their belief or lack of belief is a thoroughly evil belief system. How can you possibly defend such a system?
Continued....
To return to your brainwashing comment. How many people do you think are brainwashed from birth to believe in any one religion? All over the world we hear the phrase Christian child, Muslim child, Jewish child, etc. How dare people put such labels on children who do not have the mental wherewithal to understand the complexities of religion? It is as moronic as describing a baby as a Conservative child or a Liberal Democrat child and yet people say it without a hint of irony or guilt that they have already burdened a child who has no say in the matter with an enormous metaphorical millstone around its neck.
If you want to talk about brainwashing then let's talk about the systematic abuse of children throughout the world who are told the appalling lie that they will burn in hell forever if they don't follow some ancient ritual to the letter...
All religions are evil. To believe otherwise is to close your eyes to the reality we all live in.
To return to your brainwashing comment. How many people do you think are brainwashed from birth to believe in any one religion? All over the world we hear the phrase Christian child, Muslim child, Jewish child, etc. How dare people put such labels on children who do not have the mental wherewithal to understand the complexities of religion? It is as moronic as describing a baby as a Conservative child or a Liberal Democrat child and yet people say it without a hint of irony or guilt that they have already burdened a child who has no say in the matter with an enormous metaphorical millstone around its neck.
If you want to talk about brainwashing then let's talk about the systematic abuse of children throughout the world who are told the appalling lie that they will burn in hell forever if they don't follow some ancient ritual to the letter...
All religions are evil. To believe otherwise is to close your eyes to the reality we all live in.
//I disagree with JWs stance on blood transfusions, but, it's their choice// Yes, if it affects only themselves, but you are also supporting the choices they make on behalf of other people. I've asked you if it would have been acceptable for your father to refuse to let doctors treat your broken wrist, but I didn't get a straight answer. It seems your philosophy only applies to other people's lives so you can hardly claim to be a man of conviction, despite your reference to Voltaire.
Incidentally, my opinion on MMR is not detrimental to anyone, so continuing to bang on about it is a straw man argument.
You've mentioned the burqa again, and say continually that you support a woman's right to wear it, but you don't understand that in doing so you are also condoning a man's right to bully and subjugate the women in his life without a thought for those who, given an option, wouldn't choose to wear it. You're suffering under a gross misapprehension if you think you're speaking for the underdog, because you aren't. You're simply endorsing an appalling belief system in which women are treated as second-class citizens. You really need seriously re-think your philosophy, Everton, because at the moment you are advocating separation, you are discouraging integration, you are condoning male domination, and you are the worst kind of enemy to the millions of oppressed women in this world. In fact I'd go as far to say you're deluded. You may think you're doing the right thing, but you aren't.
continued....
Incidentally, my opinion on MMR is not detrimental to anyone, so continuing to bang on about it is a straw man argument.
You've mentioned the burqa again, and say continually that you support a woman's right to wear it, but you don't understand that in doing so you are also condoning a man's right to bully and subjugate the women in his life without a thought for those who, given an option, wouldn't choose to wear it. You're suffering under a gross misapprehension if you think you're speaking for the underdog, because you aren't. You're simply endorsing an appalling belief system in which women are treated as second-class citizens. You really need seriously re-think your philosophy, Everton, because at the moment you are advocating separation, you are discouraging integration, you are condoning male domination, and you are the worst kind of enemy to the millions of oppressed women in this world. In fact I'd go as far to say you're deluded. You may think you're doing the right thing, but you aren't.
continued....
....continued
I've posted this recently, but I'll do it again.
http://freethinker.co...ubservience%E2%80%99/
...and I'll ask you the question I asked at the time, although I won't hold my breath for an answer. Would you be happy to live like the woman in the picture, especially if it wasn't your choice? Would you be happy to dress like that every time you leave your house? Driving your bus might present one or two problems - and God(?) knows how you'd get on if you wanted to run the Marathon! Where is that woman's freedom that you so determinedly say you are promoting?
I watched a documentary a while back in which a 7 year old girl said she must keep her head covered because she didn't want to go to the 'firey place'. A little child whose head is already filled with terror - and this is what you feel justified in supporting? Count yourself lucky you weren't born a woman in such a society, Everton. You wouldn't have the option of spouting your repugnant nonsense anywhere, let alone on AB!
Quoting Voltaire is fine if that's what you really believe, but you don't. His words only apply if you agree with what's being said, so your holier-than-thou attitude is utterly dishonest.
I've posted this recently, but I'll do it again.
http://freethinker.co...ubservience%E2%80%99/
...and I'll ask you the question I asked at the time, although I won't hold my breath for an answer. Would you be happy to live like the woman in the picture, especially if it wasn't your choice? Would you be happy to dress like that every time you leave your house? Driving your bus might present one or two problems - and God(?) knows how you'd get on if you wanted to run the Marathon! Where is that woman's freedom that you so determinedly say you are promoting?
I watched a documentary a while back in which a 7 year old girl said she must keep her head covered because she didn't want to go to the 'firey place'. A little child whose head is already filled with terror - and this is what you feel justified in supporting? Count yourself lucky you weren't born a woman in such a society, Everton. You wouldn't have the option of spouting your repugnant nonsense anywhere, let alone on AB!
Quoting Voltaire is fine if that's what you really believe, but you don't. His words only apply if you agree with what's being said, so your holier-than-thou attitude is utterly dishonest.
Your stance on M.M.R detracts from what is called herd immunity, it's based on misinformation and is being used to cost us the taxpayer more money on a pointless and prolonged proceedure.
If such a woman is being bullied how does it help her when her bullying husband makes it impossible for her to go out because she's improperly dressed?
You spout some serious but flowery nonsesne, if you dislike the burkha as much as you do, then engage the wearer in conversation, point out how one can still dress modestly without being covered etc.
Your solution is a sledge hammer to a walnut.
As for your picture, to be honest, what I saw was 2 people who love each other having a good time.
For that woman to take to the water in her society is a step forward, she almost certainly will pass the baton to her daughters who will no doubt wear different attire to swim in.
Did you watch "Syrian School" on B.B.C 4?
They're no shrinking violets these Muslim women, they're just women, who live in a different society and a different culture, some wear the veil, some don't.
If such a woman is being bullied how does it help her when her bullying husband makes it impossible for her to go out because she's improperly dressed?
You spout some serious but flowery nonsesne, if you dislike the burkha as much as you do, then engage the wearer in conversation, point out how one can still dress modestly without being covered etc.
Your solution is a sledge hammer to a walnut.
As for your picture, to be honest, what I saw was 2 people who love each other having a good time.
For that woman to take to the water in her society is a step forward, she almost certainly will pass the baton to her daughters who will no doubt wear different attire to swim in.
Did you watch "Syrian School" on B.B.C 4?
They're no shrinking violets these Muslim women, they're just women, who live in a different society and a different culture, some wear the veil, some don't.
Everton, You're making excuses again. //If such a woman is being bullied how does it help her when her bullying husband makes it impossible for her to go out because she's improperly dressed? //
So does condoning his actions liberate her? No. It merely allows him to continue to treat her badly. You would help her far more by speaking up against the wrong he is doing her and trying to educate him. These men are living in the dark ages, their women are chattels who are expected to obey their men's every whim, and you're supporting it!
I've engaged the wearer in conversation, and was invited to try a burqa on to 'feel my pain'. Does that sound like a happy woman to you? These women believe they must be subservient. They don't believe they can dress differently because men in their lives tell them they can't.
No I didn't watch the TV programme you mention. Are you going to answer my question?
So does condoning his actions liberate her? No. It merely allows him to continue to treat her badly. You would help her far more by speaking up against the wrong he is doing her and trying to educate him. These men are living in the dark ages, their women are chattels who are expected to obey their men's every whim, and you're supporting it!
I've engaged the wearer in conversation, and was invited to try a burqa on to 'feel my pain'. Does that sound like a happy woman to you? These women believe they must be subservient. They don't believe they can dress differently because men in their lives tell them they can't.
No I didn't watch the TV programme you mention. Are you going to answer my question?
How do you help someone, who because of your ban, cannot step out the house?
I'm not condoning bullying at all, what a daft assertion, the reality is that many many women choose to wear it, to deny them the right on the basis that a minority are being abused is, quite frankly absurd.
It'd be better to deal with the abuser through outreach support.
I would like to thank you though, as you've demonstrated succinctly a point I made earlier, that the people you disagree with you view as being bad.
What was the question again?
I'm not condoning bullying at all, what a daft assertion, the reality is that many many women choose to wear it, to deny them the right on the basis that a minority are being abused is, quite frankly absurd.
It'd be better to deal with the abuser through outreach support.
I would like to thank you though, as you've demonstrated succinctly a point I made earlier, that the people you disagree with you view as being bad.
What was the question again?
Everton, what utter nonsense! The minority (according to you) are being abused, but it's absurd to object to that? Tell that to the women of Saudi Arabia! If that isn't condoning bullying and the subjugation of women, I don't know what is. You really haven't thought this through, have you? No surprise there then.
I didn't say you're bad - I said you are deluded - and you are. As Birdie quite rightly says to believe that religion is otherwise than evil is to close your eyes to the reality we all live in. These people are living in the dark ages, but as a fervent religious apologist you continually deny that appalling reality. Count yourself lucky you aren't a woman obliged to live in such a culture.
The question was would you like to spend your life living under a burqa - especially if it wasn't your choice?
I didn't say you're bad - I said you are deluded - and you are. As Birdie quite rightly says to believe that religion is otherwise than evil is to close your eyes to the reality we all live in. These people are living in the dark ages, but as a fervent religious apologist you continually deny that appalling reality. Count yourself lucky you aren't a woman obliged to live in such a culture.
The question was would you like to spend your life living under a burqa - especially if it wasn't your choice?
you are the worst kind of enemy to the millions of oppressed women in this world what's good about that?
The nonsense you spout, I'll let you know I broke my nose protecting a woman I didn't know from getting beaten up in a pub, and that's just for starters.
I don't condone bullying, to anyone, as I said the problem is better addressed by outreach workers.
I dislike the veil, full stop, I wouldn't choose to wear one, so if I was forced to I'd be unhappy about that.
Similarly though, if I chose to wear the veil I'd be unhappy at not being allowed to do so, in this instance I feel I know my country better than you.
Far from succumbing to the baying anti-Muslim mobs, if such a law came into force there would be massed civil disobedience over it, and rightly so.
I know you like to argue about religion etc, perhaps because it's hard to prove conclusively either way to anyone's satisfaction, but, history teaches us that in Iran the Shah was overthrown not just for his brutal, corrupt and dictatorial regime, not just for being a puppet for the west, but because he banned the veil.
100,000s of women REFUSED to step out the door, they weren't forced to.
As for Saudi Arabia, there are many things wrong with the governance of Saudi Arabia, I fail to see how a ban here will help them there, perhaps you could enlighten me?
The nonsense you spout, I'll let you know I broke my nose protecting a woman I didn't know from getting beaten up in a pub, and that's just for starters.
I don't condone bullying, to anyone, as I said the problem is better addressed by outreach workers.
I dislike the veil, full stop, I wouldn't choose to wear one, so if I was forced to I'd be unhappy about that.
Similarly though, if I chose to wear the veil I'd be unhappy at not being allowed to do so, in this instance I feel I know my country better than you.
Far from succumbing to the baying anti-Muslim mobs, if such a law came into force there would be massed civil disobedience over it, and rightly so.
I know you like to argue about religion etc, perhaps because it's hard to prove conclusively either way to anyone's satisfaction, but, history teaches us that in Iran the Shah was overthrown not just for his brutal, corrupt and dictatorial regime, not just for being a puppet for the west, but because he banned the veil.
100,000s of women REFUSED to step out the door, they weren't forced to.
As for Saudi Arabia, there are many things wrong with the governance of Saudi Arabia, I fail to see how a ban here will help them there, perhaps you could enlighten me?
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