Muslims decide

[brionon]

Now that the Muslims decide who can and cannot enter the UK can we please stop calling it a christian country ?

[naomi24]

Nannyjill, I have an English translation - perhaps you should get one and read it. I'm sure it would be quite an eye-opener for you.

Can you give me the reference for that quote you mention please?

[Nannyjill]

I do have an english translation but most of the true muslims I know say the qu'ran can never be translated out of arabic as it loses its meaning.

I will find the chapter and let you know. Having lived amongst and with a muslim for years I have studied islam but being catholic have never felt the need to convert just to get a deeper understanding of the religion.

As a matter of interest where did you get your qu'ran from - is it from a mosque? As we have 2 translations which differ in translation so much one a mullah gave me and 1 I bought

[birdie1971]

Gromit - �They, and you are wrong.�

Not so my friend.


�You seem to believe a version of the Koran which is vengeful�

I don't believe in a 'version' of the Koran The Koran is what it is. It is the word of God...

�Qur'an 5:10 "Those who reject, disbelieve and deny Our signs, proofs and verses will be companions of Hell-Fire��

and

�Qur'an 72:15 "The disbelievers are the firewood of hell."

and

�Qur'an 48:13 "If any believe not in Allah and His Messenger, We have prepared a Blazing Fire for them!"�

All of the above are 'God's� words.


�They are guilty of misinterpretation of the scriptures�


How can you misinterpret quotes like - �The disbelievers are the firewood of hell."?

You say, �The vast majority of Muslims, just like the vast majority of Christians have no murderous intentions �

Agreed. But that's because the vast majority of Muslims don't understand their own religion � the destructive, vindictive, murderous verses are explained away by suggesting that the verses no longer mean what they used to mean.

It's a cheap argument and most intelligent Muslims know it.

So I conclude...

It is you who are wrong.

You are sowing the seeds of your own destruction by defending the Islamic faith. It is a cancerous growth on the body of democracy.

[naomi24]

Nannyjill, I know they say that the only true Koran is the one written in Arabic, but there are many Muslims who can't read that and have to rely upon English translations. I got my copy in England - and from speaking to AB's resident Muslim, Keyplus, it seems he reads the same version. The Koran is supposedly the infallible word of God, and as such, in the essence of its doctrine, it cannot differ greatly from one translation to the next. Quite simply, whatever version we read, we cannot deny the horrors it contains.

[Nannyjill]

Naomi

The sura I am referring to is 4.19 which also deals with men marrying women against their will.

There are many chapters in the bible Genesis 16-19, Numbers 30 and Exodus 21-22 which are very demeaning to women.

I was only asking about the translation as I have 1 by Dr Irving circa about 1976? - it's a penguin book and actually I found another by Shakir. However, the one which is favoured by Saudis is entirely differnt alveit still ahving the 114 suras.

I can't comment about Keyplus I don't know him and even if I did it wouldn't be my place to.

The muslim council of great Britain have spoken out about some of the teachings of the saudi ministry. In the past I have attended groups from the interfaith dept which tries to bring together muslim and no muslims.

I am not condoning the way some so called "muslim" terrorists act in the same way I do not condone the way some "priests "act within the catholic church. To my mnd never are religious.

[Nannyjill]

Naomi going back to your first post to me you asked where I got my ideas from?

I'm not sure what else you were talking about as I went off on a tangent about the qu'ran (which my partner has since said should be qur'an)quote.

The views about the Saudis came a from visits to the mosque ,a couple of documentaries where people went undercover into mosques and my own observations and conversations from when I lived abroad amongst muslims.

[naomi24]

Nannyjill, sura 4.19 does not refer to all women. It refers to the women of deceased kinsmen. I have found three examples of it, and whilst all are very similar, none suggest for one moment that 'women should be put on a pedestal and worshipped and protected.'

........treat them nicely.

��live with them honourably.

��treat them with kindness.

People will tell you what it suits them to tell you, but unless you read the whole of the Koran for yourself, you're never going to know what it really contains.

[Nannyjill]

Naomi I am not going to argue with you as I and most muslims believe that the qur'an cannot be translated out of arabic into english,certainly not the religious ones anyway.

You said that many muslims can't read arabic which is true but that is why many of them go to classes to learn.My muslim friends who do have a english translated qur'an are ones who are with an englsih partner or are studying religions as a whole.

You haven't answered my other points though???

[naomi24]

Sorry, Nannyjill, I've been very busy today, but I will get back to you tomorrow on the issue of women being put on pedestals, or not, and on what you say is the Saudi version of the Koran. I'm not sure what you mean when you say I haven't answered your other points. Could you elaborate please?

Incidentally, unlike some on AB, I don't consider civilised and intelligent debate to be personal conflict. I would hope that at the end of the day, anyone I talk to would be happy to join me afterwards in a cyber glass of wine.

Time for bed. Goodnight.

[naomi24]

Nannyjill, you say you won't argue with me, so I assume that means that although I've given you evidence that the Koran does not say that women should be put on a pedestal, etc., you simply don't believe me. If that's the case then where is your evidence to support your claim? You say in an Islamic marriage both parties need to agree. I wonder how you square that with child brides? Are they capable of agreeing? No, they do as they're told, and if that means being given in marriage to an old man, then that's what happens.

The Koran you say the Saudis use is the same Koran as everyone else uses. Obviously slight differences occur in translation, but essentially the message is precisely the same. The Koran is the word of God and, as such, is unalterable. My Koran tells muslims not to mix with non-muslims too, and my Koran commands believers to slaughter non-believers. It is no different.

I think you are peering at the world of Islam through rose-coloured spectacles. You need to read the Koran.

[Nannyjillx2]

Naomi I didn't mean to imply this was personal when I posted I'm not going argue with you - if we can't discuss and agree to differ then there would be no point in posting. We're all entitled to our own opinions.

I'm saying that the verses I've quoted have a different meaning in Arabic.

As to the Saudi qur'an there are many passages added into it and many muslim schools in London will not use it and Regent's park mosque will only give it out under cover.There have been a few tv programmes detailing this and one only a few months ago.

Any forced marriages are not true islamic marriages and this is born out by the official marriage views of the Muslim council of Great Britain with their view to marriage .

It is often a practice carried out I don't deny but it is not permitted , probably in much the same way priests abuse young boys , it is not permitted by the church but it goes on.

[Nannyjillx2]

I posted that before I had finished.

I was going to say that when I lived near the Iraq border many marriages took place which I would perceive to be forced (mainly by kurds although supposedly practising islam) and that was through fear of husband/father and did not in any way relate to the islamic code on marriage. Many mariages in these circumstances are cultural and not religious but as many people are ignorant of their faith they are led to believe it is religious.

[naomi24]

You see Nannyjill, you say this isn�t truly Islamic, or that isn�t truly Islamic, but the fact is these things are happening, and this is the way people are living their lives. Idealism is a fine thing, but unfortunately it rarely rears its head in the real world - and if we don�t acknowledge that, then we�re living in Cloud Cuckoo Land.

I think we�ve gone as far as we can with this discussion, but it�s been nice talking to you.