Bloodthirsty.

[Gourmander]

I see that Israel has broken the ceasefire in Gaza, wouldn't trust them with a bent shekel.

[anotheoldgit]

I think ou have it wrong it was Hamas who broke the ceasefire, not Isreal.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/arti cle-1120732/Hamas-announces-immediate-ceasefir e-gives-Israel-week-leave-Gaza.html

[Lonnie]

And here's a visual link that proves it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7 836008.stm

Gourmander , you really should check your facts first.

[amonty1144]

I saw the post and thought I had alzheimers, I'm sure the news said hamas started it...and you lovely people proved my marbles are still intact lol

[birdie1971]

How long will it take people to wake up to the fact that Hamas cannot be trusted? Their stated aim is to wipe Israel off the map and �drink the blood of the Israelis�. When Hamas came to power, they publically stated that they would take no action against the Fatah organisation. Within days, Hamas was brutally killing dozens and dozens of Fatah members.

A ceasefire by Hamas has been announced today. I wonder why?

Maybe it�s something to do with the fact that they�re getting the sh1t kicked out of them and need a bit of down-time to regroup, rearm and prepare for further rocket attacks.

Israel has finally decided to obliterate the terrorists on their doorstep. Good for them.

That civilians are being killed is terrible, but seeing as Hamas deliberately position their rocket crews in civilian areas, it�s inevitable. And it shows the utter contempt that Hamas has for their own people. Hamas claim they want Jihad.

Well it appears that their wish has come true.

Maybe someone should have told Hamas to be careful what you wish for.



"The constants and the strategy of Hamas do not change according to circumstances. Hamas will stay faithful to jihad, to resistance, to guns, to Palestine and to Jerusalem."
(Ismail Haniyah, Hamas leader, at an election rally in Gaza, January 20, 2006, Gulf Daily News, Bahrain)

[jno]

tut tut, as you very well know Israel only breaks UN resolutions...

[birdie1971]

Jno � I know that Israel has broken many UN resolutions. But at least the UN recognises that Israel is a legitimate country with a legitimate Government. As opposed to Hamas, who are recognised as a terrorist organisation.

I�m not saying the Israel is whiter that white � far from it. But, seriously, if you were in charge of Israel, what would you do?

If a terrorist organisation was elected in France and they started firing rockets into Kent (because the French once ruled the UK [William The Conqueror, 1066]), what do you think would be an appropriate response from the British Government? Should they just ignore it and hope it stops?

Maybe they should just hand over Kent to the French terrorists, no questions asked because bombing them back might cause some civilian deaths.

Yes, that would be the right thing to do...



Or maybe, just maybe, they should retaliate.

[anotheoldgit]

Still no apology forthcoming from Gourmander who started all this, with their false statement.

[Gourmander]

Birdie, if French terrorists fired rockets into the Kent coast, should Britain retaliate and destroy Paris in the process?
I don't think so. Troops could be there in a couple of hours by Eurostar, take out the positions and be back home the same day. No need for all that bloodshed and destruction. I don't understand your thinking, you seem to agree with Israel taking over the whole of the Middle East.

[Lonnie]

Well said birdie,

Gourmander, why don't you come out and say your in accord with the aims of Hamas, to 'Wipe israel off the face of the Earth'.
Are you anti-Israel, anti Jewish, or maybe both?.

And maybe you'd like to explain your statement about Israel 'taking over the whole of the Middle east'?.

[Quinlad]

Is it possible to criticise the actions of Israel without being accused of being a Jew hater?

[jake-the-peg]

Or Birdie if a paramilitary organisation was to be working out of the republic of Ireland and bombing Britain and killing British Citizens should British tanks not roll south of the border and kill 1500 Irish citizens in their attempt to stop it?

Enough is enough -t ime for a total weapons ban in the middle east.

No more Weapons to Palestine

Us to stop military funding to Israel.

I've said it once and I'll say it again "A plague on both your houses!"

[sqad617]

Gourmander.....your analogy would be that a strip of the French coast which was launching rockets into Ramsgate, Deal etc.and that the British would "flatten" that part of France....semms reasonable to me.
Paris would have nothing to do with it and that comment you made is misleading.

Hopping over World War 2 Commando style would be inappropriate, as the Hamas are smuggling arms into Gazza via tunnels from Lebanon and Egypt and these have to be identified and "dealt with.
Collateral casualties are indeed upsetting but unfortunately are a fact in any war.

[Lonnie]

Quinlad, of course it is, i've replied to many posts without being as strong as this, as you should know, but i'm going on the Gourmanders post, posted and biased without checking facts, obviously felt he/she didn't need to, and then on this reply to birdie,

Question Author

'Birdie, if French terrorists fired rockets into the Kent coast, should Britain retaliate and destroy Paris in the process?
I don't think so. Troops could be there in a couple of hours by Eurostar, take out the positions and be back home the same day. No need for all that bloodshed and destruction. I don't understand your thinking, you seem to agree with Israel taking over the whole of the Middle East'

Somehow, Gourmander has the idea that Israel is taking over the Middle East.

There's an obvious pre-conceived bias, and i'm trying to find our how deep it is.

[birdie1971]

Hi Gourmander,

You seem to be under some strange delusions.

You seem to think that Israel can simply send in ground troops, quickly take out the rocket positions and retreat to a safe distance. You seem to believe that they can achieve all this without a single civilian life being lost.

Oh, to live in that world.

Unfortunately (and I really do mean that), it doesn�t work like that. As I stated before, the terrorist organisation called Hamas has placed its rocket launching sites within civilian communities in Gaza. Hamas have been claiming for years that they want Jihad. Well, here it is. And lo and behold, it�s pretty ugly. When a violent and intolerant group of people decide to wage war on a neighbour who they believe, has no right to even exist, then bad things will happen.

It�s called war Gourmander � innocent people get killed. It�s not nice.

You further state, �I don't understand your thinking, you seem to agree with Israel taking over the whole of the Middle East.�

Do I?

Just to be crystal clear on this point, I not agree that Israel should take over the whole Middle East. Quite frankly, your statement is both insulting and ludicrous in equal measure.

[birdie1971]

jake-the-peg � �Enough is enough -time for a total weapons ban in the middle east. No more Weapons to Palestine. Us to stop military funding to Israel.�

I could not agree more.

This conflict will never be solved by war. It will only be solved by negotiation.

The only thing blocking that at the moment is Hamas. Hamas believe that every Israeli should be killed.

You cannot begin meaningful negotiations if one side genuinely thinks that other side has no moral or legal right to exist.

Hamas must be removed from this process. If they are not, this conflict will go on and on, with no end.

[jno]

birdie, just to anwer your question in the same was as jake did: what Britain did was negotiate (while pretending not to). Negotiation assumes you may have to compromise, and that suggests you may have to give something up.

In 2007, 13 Israelis were killed in this sort of fighting, seven of them civilians. 373 Palestinians died (that's about 30 times as many), about a third of them civilians. That response is very disproportionate. With 1500 Palestinians dead in the latest offensive it is getting more so.

I don't think the 1066 analogy quite works. The Palestinians' land wasn't taken a millennium ago; it was within the lifetimes of people living today; so the wounds will doubtless be more raw.

[Lonnie]

jno, much as I like the measured way you reply to various posts, I don't think you can talk reasonably about what is proportionate and disproportionate.

on the Israeli side, going back to 2005, when Hamas started launching their rockets, If Israel didn't have warning systems in place, and prepered bunkers for Israelis, (Jews and Arabs, their dead and wounded would have run into the thousands/
If that was the case, what would be proportionate.

Now, just to take one case of possibly a proprtionate response, a Suicide Bomber, of which Israel has never done, a proprtionate response would surely have been to send one back.

Unfortunately, its a hard fact, thate whatever response Israel gives, it will be seen as the aggressor., unless of course, it sits on its hands and does nothing at all.

Its between a rock and a hard place.

[Gourmander]

Birdie, you call my statement insulting and ludicrous, just because I don't agree with your views. That's the typical Israeli response, always looking for confrontation. Any excuse to kill innocent Palestinians.

[Lonnie]

Gourmander, have look at this link, and watch the video. I don't expect you to believe any of it, but have a look anyway.

http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/458847 34/critiques/new/Israel_at_War_-_Day_15.asp

[birdie1971]

Gourmander - �That's the typical Israeli response, always looking for confrontation. Any excuse to kill innocent Palestinians."

Hamas never look for confrontation do they? They are just innocent victims in all this aren�t they?

But those damn Israelis eh? Sitting there, like they�ve got some kind of right to exist. Makes your blood boil. Honestly, they�re just asking to have rockets thrown at them.

These are the words of the Egyptian Foreign Minister, Ahmed Aboul Gheit, to Hamas: "The Israelis have been warning you that this was coming if you continue your cross border rocket attacks. Egypt has been imploring you to stop firing rockets into Israel, but you ignored our words. We have been urging you to renew the cease-fire with Israel, but you refused. You have brought this upon yourselves. You are responsible for what is happening to the people of Gaza."

But it�s all Israel�s fault isn�t it?



That's the typical Hamas response, always trying to look like they�re the victim, when they�re actually the aggressor. Any excuse to kill innocent Israelis.