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Is Islam REALLY the religion of peace and forgiveness......
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...or am I confusing a religion for a nation? Sorry, I know this has been discussed on here many times, but I'd not come across apostacy before.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/midd leeast/iran/3179465/Hanged-for-being-a-Christi an-in-Iran.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/midd leeast/iran/3179465/Hanged-for-being-a-Christi an-in-Iran.html
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Ignore all you want Keyplus. That is your general consensus on any on that disagrees with you.
It still doesn't change a thing or the fact that your argument doesn't stand.
I talk of a God who in my mind is as far removed from any religion as you can get. As I said it's all about peoples interpretaion of him/her/it.
Just because some one wrote down in a book what they understand to be the word of God does not make it so.
As for saying DOc doesn't have any idea, judging from this and other posts of yours in past threads, neither do you.
At least we are open to the thoughts and beliefs of others.
Islam tends not to be.
Just as in many other religions Islam is rife with disagreements within it's system on how the Quran should be viewed.
And that on t's own should be enough for those who choose to move away from it a study other religigons to be allowed to.
Please by all means ignore me. I don't expect anything else from the closed minded.
It still doesn't change a thing or the fact that your argument doesn't stand.
I talk of a God who in my mind is as far removed from any religion as you can get. As I said it's all about peoples interpretaion of him/her/it.
Just because some one wrote down in a book what they understand to be the word of God does not make it so.
As for saying DOc doesn't have any idea, judging from this and other posts of yours in past threads, neither do you.
At least we are open to the thoughts and beliefs of others.
Islam tends not to be.
Just as in many other religions Islam is rife with disagreements within it's system on how the Quran should be viewed.
And that on t's own should be enough for those who choose to move away from it a study other religigons to be allowed to.
Please by all means ignore me. I don't expect anything else from the closed minded.
OK - I have changed my mind about ignoring you and I am going to convince you or be convinced. On my part that is as honest as you get and about your mind I do not know.
So you believe in God but your concept of God has nothing to do with religion, is that what you meant? However if that is so then it is very strange as I can't see any where in the history where someone has spoken about God outside any religious belief.
Now about me being closed mind, and I have said this before that give me a single verse from Quran (with context) that is against humanity, mankind or any thing else. Although I am not a Islamic scholar or not even near there but still I know I can answer any thing you come up with, you may not like that or do not agree with that and that is a totally different story as no one s saying that every single person would agree on any thing ever. There you go.
So you believe in God but your concept of God has nothing to do with religion, is that what you meant? However if that is so then it is very strange as I can't see any where in the history where someone has spoken about God outside any religious belief.
Now about me being closed mind, and I have said this before that give me a single verse from Quran (with context) that is against humanity, mankind or any thing else. Although I am not a Islamic scholar or not even near there but still I know I can answer any thing you come up with, you may not like that or do not agree with that and that is a totally different story as no one s saying that every single person would agree on any thing ever. There you go.
Keyplus - �Now a very simple question for birdie and Trojan. And I am sure I have asked this to birdie before and never got a proper answer so I wouldn�t be surprised if the same happens this time.�
Oh what a short / defective memory you have. I have answered these question before, but if it makes you happy, I shall do so agin.
2:256: �There is no compulsion in religion...�. Really?
Let�s look at the next verse...
2:257: "Allah is the protecting guardian of those who believe. He bringeth them out of darkness into light. As for those who disbelieve, their patrons are false deities. They bring them out of light into darkness. Such are the rightful owners of the Fire [of Hell]. They will abide therein [forever]."
Both verses together certainly convey a different message than the typical apologist snippet from 2:256. The pair of complete verses show the Koran's respective policies for Muslims (believers) and non-Muslims (disbelievers). Believers are warned not to slip into disbelief, and disbelievers are warned to become believers � or else. In other words, according to this passage, there is compulsion in Islam, despite the initial "no compulsion" statement.
And this one...
18:29: "Say: (It is) the truth from the Lord of you (all). Then whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve. Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers Fire. Its tent encloseth them. If they ask for showers, they will be showered with water like to molten lead which burneth the faces. Calamitous the drink and ill the resting-place!"
The policy in the Koran does not appear to be "Believe it or not," but instead is "Believe it or else!" The damnation of disbelievers in 2:257 and 18:29 is consistent with Allah's policy throughout the Koran. There are over 250 separate damnations of disbelievers in the Koran.
Oh what a short / defective memory you have. I have answered these question before, but if it makes you happy, I shall do so agin.
2:256: �There is no compulsion in religion...�. Really?
Let�s look at the next verse...
2:257: "Allah is the protecting guardian of those who believe. He bringeth them out of darkness into light. As for those who disbelieve, their patrons are false deities. They bring them out of light into darkness. Such are the rightful owners of the Fire [of Hell]. They will abide therein [forever]."
Both verses together certainly convey a different message than the typical apologist snippet from 2:256. The pair of complete verses show the Koran's respective policies for Muslims (believers) and non-Muslims (disbelievers). Believers are warned not to slip into disbelief, and disbelievers are warned to become believers � or else. In other words, according to this passage, there is compulsion in Islam, despite the initial "no compulsion" statement.
And this one...
18:29: "Say: (It is) the truth from the Lord of you (all). Then whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve. Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers Fire. Its tent encloseth them. If they ask for showers, they will be showered with water like to molten lead which burneth the faces. Calamitous the drink and ill the resting-place!"
The policy in the Koran does not appear to be "Believe it or not," but instead is "Believe it or else!" The damnation of disbelievers in 2:257 and 18:29 is consistent with Allah's policy throughout the Koran. There are over 250 separate damnations of disbelievers in the Koran.
Finally on this point...
The following passage makes clear that Allah has full control over religious belief; Allah himself makes it impossible for the disbelievers to grasp his message, and then he punishes them for not grasping it!
2:6-10: "Verily, those who disbelieve, it is the same to them whether you (O Muhammad Peace be upon him) warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe. Allah has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearings, (i.e. they are closed from accepting Allah's Guidance), and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be a great torment. And of mankind, there are some (hypocrites) who say: "We believe in Allah and the Last Day" while in fact they believe not. They (think to) deceive Allah and those who believe, while they only deceive themselves, and perceive (it) not! In their hearts is a disease (of doubt and hypocrisy) and Allah has increased their disease. A painful torment is theirs because they used to tell lies."
The above passages demolish the general claim that 'there is no compulsion in Islam.'
The following passage makes clear that Allah has full control over religious belief; Allah himself makes it impossible for the disbelievers to grasp his message, and then he punishes them for not grasping it!
2:6-10: "Verily, those who disbelieve, it is the same to them whether you (O Muhammad Peace be upon him) warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe. Allah has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearings, (i.e. they are closed from accepting Allah's Guidance), and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be a great torment. And of mankind, there are some (hypocrites) who say: "We believe in Allah and the Last Day" while in fact they believe not. They (think to) deceive Allah and those who believe, while they only deceive themselves, and perceive (it) not! In their hearts is a disease (of doubt and hypocrisy) and Allah has increased their disease. A painful torment is theirs because they used to tell lies."
The above passages demolish the general claim that 'there is no compulsion in Islam.'
Your next point �Who so ever kills a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he has killed all mankind, and who so ever saves the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind," (Sura V.32)
Unfortunately, these wonderful sounding words are being quoted out of context. Here is the entire quote:
V.32: �That was why We laid it down for the Israelites that whoever killed a human being, except as a punishment for murder or other villainy in the land, shall be looked upon as though he had killed all mankind; and that whoever saved a human life shall be regarded as though he had saved all mankind. Our apostles brought them veritable proofs: yet it was not long before many of them committed great evils in the land. Those that make war against God and His apostle and spread disorder shall be put to death or crucified or have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides, or be banished from the country.�
The supposedly noble sentiments are in fact a warning to Jews. Behave or else is the message. Far from abjuring violence, these verses aggressively point out that anyone opposing the Prophet will be killed, crucified, mutilated and banished!
Is that answered fully enough for you Keyplus?
Unfortunately, these wonderful sounding words are being quoted out of context. Here is the entire quote:
V.32: �That was why We laid it down for the Israelites that whoever killed a human being, except as a punishment for murder or other villainy in the land, shall be looked upon as though he had killed all mankind; and that whoever saved a human life shall be regarded as though he had saved all mankind. Our apostles brought them veritable proofs: yet it was not long before many of them committed great evils in the land. Those that make war against God and His apostle and spread disorder shall be put to death or crucified or have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides, or be banished from the country.�
The supposedly noble sentiments are in fact a warning to Jews. Behave or else is the message. Far from abjuring violence, these verses aggressively point out that anyone opposing the Prophet will be killed, crucified, mutilated and banished!
Is that answered fully enough for you Keyplus?
Keyplus � �give me a single verse from Quran (with context) that is against humanity..."
Islam's mission to the world is an imperialistic one, as described by contemporary scholar Bassam Tibi:
"At its core, Islam is a religious mission to all humanity. Muslims are religiously obliged to disseminate the Islamic faith throughout the world. 'We have sent you forth to all mankind' (Q. 34:28). If non-Muslims submit to conversion or subjugation, this call (da'wa) can be pursued peacefully. If they do not, Muslims are obliged to wage war against them. In Islam, peace requires that non-Muslims submit to the call of Islam, either by converting or by accepting the status of a religious minority (dhimmi) and paying the imposed poll tax, jizya. World peace, the final stage of the da'wa, is reached only with the conversion or submission of all mankind to Islam... Muslims believe that expansion through war is not aggression but a fulfilment of the Qur'anic command to spread Islam as a way to peace. The resort to force to disseminate Islam is not war (harb), a word that is used only to describe the use of force by non-Muslims. Islamic wars are not hurub (the plural of harb) but rather futuhat, acts of 'opening' the world to Islam and expressing Islamic jihad. Unbelievers who stand in the way, creating obstacles for the da'wa, are blamed for this state of war, for the da'wa can be pursued peacefully if others submit to it. In other words, those who resist Islam cause wars and are responsible for them. Only when Muslim power is weak is 'temporary truce' (hudna) allowed (Islamic jurists differ on the definition of 'temporary')."
Your assertion that Islam is not against humanity is false. Islam intends to take over the world and forcibly convert all mankind to Islam. If that isn�t against humanity, I don�t know what is.
Islam's mission to the world is an imperialistic one, as described by contemporary scholar Bassam Tibi:
"At its core, Islam is a religious mission to all humanity. Muslims are religiously obliged to disseminate the Islamic faith throughout the world. 'We have sent you forth to all mankind' (Q. 34:28). If non-Muslims submit to conversion or subjugation, this call (da'wa) can be pursued peacefully. If they do not, Muslims are obliged to wage war against them. In Islam, peace requires that non-Muslims submit to the call of Islam, either by converting or by accepting the status of a religious minority (dhimmi) and paying the imposed poll tax, jizya. World peace, the final stage of the da'wa, is reached only with the conversion or submission of all mankind to Islam... Muslims believe that expansion through war is not aggression but a fulfilment of the Qur'anic command to spread Islam as a way to peace. The resort to force to disseminate Islam is not war (harb), a word that is used only to describe the use of force by non-Muslims. Islamic wars are not hurub (the plural of harb) but rather futuhat, acts of 'opening' the world to Islam and expressing Islamic jihad. Unbelievers who stand in the way, creating obstacles for the da'wa, are blamed for this state of war, for the da'wa can be pursued peacefully if others submit to it. In other words, those who resist Islam cause wars and are responsible for them. Only when Muslim power is weak is 'temporary truce' (hudna) allowed (Islamic jurists differ on the definition of 'temporary')."
Your assertion that Islam is not against humanity is false. Islam intends to take over the world and forcibly convert all mankind to Islam. If that isn�t against humanity, I don�t know what is.
Hell?!! oh no, I'm just going into a hole in the ground (if I'm lucky)
But bearing in mind the (alleged) writings of a college student writing a paper on whether Hell was exo- or endo-thermic: Seeing as all religions believe that the non-believers of their religion will go to Hell, EVERYONE'S going there anyway.
So looks like we'll be in good company!!
But bearing in mind the (alleged) writings of a college student writing a paper on whether Hell was exo- or endo-thermic: Seeing as all religions believe that the non-believers of their religion will go to Hell, EVERYONE'S going there anyway.
So looks like we'll be in good company!!
Ok I will answer you here as you have had enough of applause. In few words, yes there is no compulsion from people but, how the people are treated in any country when they do not abide by the law?
Of course you would not have any idea. People are punished. And in response to all of your time waste of long posts. I would say yes, God has given clear laws, put them in practice in any society, in any culture and see if they work or not, and that is the proof that they are right laws. Now when people do not abide by them yes they will be punished by the creator. That is the main difference between the one who believe in any religion and the one who came from the fossils, they will believe in law of the country but not the law of the creator.
Don't believe in it, you don't have to. Many do and many don�t. Or else ask British govt that why they put rapist behind the bars. And does that work, surely does not.
So my little lovely birdie, I have said this before that your propaganda may work on AB as you have many who think chopping hand as bad but do not look at the result that gives, but unfortunately in real life things are different.
So wake up before it is too late. But I am sure you won't.
Of course you would not have any idea. People are punished. And in response to all of your time waste of long posts. I would say yes, God has given clear laws, put them in practice in any society, in any culture and see if they work or not, and that is the proof that they are right laws. Now when people do not abide by them yes they will be punished by the creator. That is the main difference between the one who believe in any religion and the one who came from the fossils, they will believe in law of the country but not the law of the creator.
Don't believe in it, you don't have to. Many do and many don�t. Or else ask British govt that why they put rapist behind the bars. And does that work, surely does not.
So my little lovely birdie, I have said this before that your propaganda may work on AB as you have many who think chopping hand as bad but do not look at the result that gives, but unfortunately in real life things are different.
So wake up before it is too late. But I am sure you won't.
Keyplus � I would respond to your reply but unfortunately I cannot understand it.
Sorry to be a pain but please explain what this means... �In few words, yes there is no compulsion from people but, how the people are treated in any country when they do not abide by the law?�
Is this a question or a statement? I don�t understand.
�Don't believe in it, you don't have to. Many do and many don�t. Or else ask British govt that why they put rapist behind the bars. And does that work, surely does not.�
Not sure I�m following you here...
�I have said this before that your propaganda may work on AB as you have many who think chopping hand as bad but do not look at the result that gives, but unfortunately in real life things are different.�
OK. I think I know what�s going on here. Either you�re drunk (ie. violating Islamic law), or you�re so drunk with Islamic anger that you have been rendered incapable of intelligent speech.
You�re right, I do give long answers. There�s a very good reason for this. Let�s assume for a minute that Einstein was a Muslim. When someone asks him �Why do objects fall to the Earth?�. He would surely reply, �Because Allah makes it so�.
Does this explain the phenomena of falling objects? No, of course not. His General Theory of Relativity explains this but unfortunately for the hard of thinking it�s a little difficult to follow.
Sometimes simple questions need long and detailed explanations. If you don�t like long answers, then stop asking questions about religion. The answers will always be long from an atheist.
Sorry to be a pain but please explain what this means... �In few words, yes there is no compulsion from people but, how the people are treated in any country when they do not abide by the law?�
Is this a question or a statement? I don�t understand.
�Don't believe in it, you don't have to. Many do and many don�t. Or else ask British govt that why they put rapist behind the bars. And does that work, surely does not.�
Not sure I�m following you here...
�I have said this before that your propaganda may work on AB as you have many who think chopping hand as bad but do not look at the result that gives, but unfortunately in real life things are different.�
OK. I think I know what�s going on here. Either you�re drunk (ie. violating Islamic law), or you�re so drunk with Islamic anger that you have been rendered incapable of intelligent speech.
You�re right, I do give long answers. There�s a very good reason for this. Let�s assume for a minute that Einstein was a Muslim. When someone asks him �Why do objects fall to the Earth?�. He would surely reply, �Because Allah makes it so�.
Does this explain the phenomena of falling objects? No, of course not. His General Theory of Relativity explains this but unfortunately for the hard of thinking it�s a little difficult to follow.
Sometimes simple questions need long and detailed explanations. If you don�t like long answers, then stop asking questions about religion. The answers will always be long from an atheist.
Keyplus � �So wake up before it is too late. But I am sure you won't.�
I�m wide awake. It�s you who is sleepwalking through your life.
When you face East to pray towards Mecca, do you realise that, because we live on a spherical world, that you are also turning your back on Mecca?
Mohammed didn�t realise that the world is spherical. He was a desert nomad of very little intelligence.
You and all those who follow Islam are following the teachings of a small minded desert dweller.
Don�t you think it�s time to move on?
I�m wide awake. It�s you who is sleepwalking through your life.
When you face East to pray towards Mecca, do you realise that, because we live on a spherical world, that you are also turning your back on Mecca?
Mohammed didn�t realise that the world is spherical. He was a desert nomad of very little intelligence.
You and all those who follow Islam are following the teachings of a small minded desert dweller.
Don�t you think it�s time to move on?
Trojanfarce....This murderous death happened in a moslem nation according to their laws; they will NOT tolerate any other faith. These countries are single-mindedly racist and proving to be ever more intolerant of 'outsiders'. Life is cheap in these countries which are mostly led by aged imams who care little for others lives as their own are drawing to a close due to age. Unfortunately the grip on the population is such that if your disagree with their principles, you die.....simple as.
That's why so many moslems/islamists choose to live here, a more liberal country with laws respecting and valuing human life.
That's why so many moslems/islamists choose to live here, a more liberal country with laws respecting and valuing human life.
Looking at your intellect I think I will have to make it extremely simple.
What happens when you drive in a bus lane during the hours when its not allowed?
Do you get a ticket or do they leave you alone?
Most of the cases you get ticket because you have done something against the law. So same way all those verses you quoted talk about punishment. Simple as that. However if you do not believe ib God then why worry about his punishments as for you these do not exist.
I am 100% sure you are still numb.
What happens when you drive in a bus lane during the hours when its not allowed?
Do you get a ticket or do they leave you alone?
Most of the cases you get ticket because you have done something against the law. So same way all those verses you quoted talk about punishment. Simple as that. However if you do not believe ib God then why worry about his punishments as for you these do not exist.
I am 100% sure you are still numb.
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