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anotheoldgit
Prepare for a shock. I agree with most of your last paragraph.
You make a very good point with regards to skilled workers, especially in the health sector, coming here, where their skills may be better exploited at home.
But that's the fundamental drive behind good immigration..bringing people in who can fill a skills gap.
But we have to remember the difference between immigration from the expanded Europe and immigration from elsewhere. Different rules apply.
Regarding your earlier question on the positive/negative impact on the economy, I read a very interesting article about this in The Independent a couple of months back, which stated that immigrants benefit the nation to a tune of �300million.
Here's the link:
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/ article1220858.ece
Unfortunately you need to subscribe to the online edition to read the whole thing.
However, here's an article by Sir Digby Jones (ex-Director General of the CBI), which you can read without subscribing on the benefits of immigrants and their effect on the job market:
http://comment.independent.co.uk/commentators/ article1220815.ece
Prepare for a shock. I agree with most of your last paragraph.
You make a very good point with regards to skilled workers, especially in the health sector, coming here, where their skills may be better exploited at home.
But that's the fundamental drive behind good immigration..bringing people in who can fill a skills gap.
But we have to remember the difference between immigration from the expanded Europe and immigration from elsewhere. Different rules apply.
Regarding your earlier question on the positive/negative impact on the economy, I read a very interesting article about this in The Independent a couple of months back, which stated that immigrants benefit the nation to a tune of �300million.
Here's the link:
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/ article1220858.ece
Unfortunately you need to subscribe to the online edition to read the whole thing.
However, here's an article by Sir Digby Jones (ex-Director General of the CBI), which you can read without subscribing on the benefits of immigrants and their effect on the job market:
http://comment.independent.co.uk/commentators/ article1220815.ece
Nox
You claim I obviously don't know why we need immigrants!.
If you actually read and understood my comment I qualified that remark by saying we don't need immigration IF THIS COUNTRY WOULD WAKE UP AND EDUCATE IT'S OWN PEOPLE so that we wouldn't need to bring in Doctors etc. Also ask yourself WHY half the professionals have left this Country for greener pastures in the first place.
sp
" So we need immigrant to pump money into the economy...not necessarily through tax (many of them work for wages below the tax level) but for NI contributions..."
For your information NI contributions are only used to build up one's state pension and NOT fund hospitals etc - I know because I worked for HMRC for several years.
And who says the ageing population don't contribute to the economy. They pay VAT, Inheritance Tax, tax on petrol for their cars, Council Tax etc. which is probably more than can be said for new immigrants and those uneducated Brits that would rather get State handouts than do those lesser paid jobs
You claim I obviously don't know why we need immigrants!.
If you actually read and understood my comment I qualified that remark by saying we don't need immigration IF THIS COUNTRY WOULD WAKE UP AND EDUCATE IT'S OWN PEOPLE so that we wouldn't need to bring in Doctors etc. Also ask yourself WHY half the professionals have left this Country for greener pastures in the first place.
sp
" So we need immigrant to pump money into the economy...not necessarily through tax (many of them work for wages below the tax level) but for NI contributions..."
For your information NI contributions are only used to build up one's state pension and NOT fund hospitals etc - I know because I worked for HMRC for several years.
And who says the ageing population don't contribute to the economy. They pay VAT, Inheritance Tax, tax on petrol for their cars, Council Tax etc. which is probably more than can be said for new immigrants and those uneducated Brits that would rather get State handouts than do those lesser paid jobs
Our country is a fairly small one and is already way up there in the population per square mile ratings. We simply dont have the space or infrastructure to support immigration of any kind. Its a snowball effect, the more immigrants arriving, the more amenities are needed, more staff is required to facilitate these extra services and so on and so forth. Where does it end?
Wow sp1814
I do hope you are not considering marriage or even a permanent relationship? But I do hope we will have cause to cross swords again in the future.
But to be serious, as I have stated before i am not racist or wish to offend anyone in anyway whatsoever. What I like is to read other peoples views as well as posting my views. This all goes to making us more tolerent of each other and debate matters of concern.
But what I am a stickler for is equality and a level playing field for everyone. And it is just there that we tend to differ you are always blasting The Daily Mail and then quote me The Independent, interesting though the article was, I think they also equally put their slant on things.
And then Sir Digby Jones, who better to wave the ' support for immigration ' flag, a ready mass of cheap labour which in turn benefits big business? And reduces wages for our own people who with the help from the unions, have lifted the working classes out of misery of existing on the crumbs that the industrialists cared to throw at us.
Blimey I am now starting to sound like a Communist beggar the thought. Bye
I do hope you are not considering marriage or even a permanent relationship? But I do hope we will have cause to cross swords again in the future.
But to be serious, as I have stated before i am not racist or wish to offend anyone in anyway whatsoever. What I like is to read other peoples views as well as posting my views. This all goes to making us more tolerent of each other and debate matters of concern.
But what I am a stickler for is equality and a level playing field for everyone. And it is just there that we tend to differ you are always blasting The Daily Mail and then quote me The Independent, interesting though the article was, I think they also equally put their slant on things.
And then Sir Digby Jones, who better to wave the ' support for immigration ' flag, a ready mass of cheap labour which in turn benefits big business? And reduces wages for our own people who with the help from the unions, have lifted the working classes out of misery of existing on the crumbs that the industrialists cared to throw at us.
Blimey I am now starting to sound like a Communist beggar the thought. Bye
I don't live in a part of the country where I think I will ever see the much ethnic diversity. It has becomea little more noticible but generally apart from a large portugeuse and polish community thats about it.
I still dont believe for a minute that people move here to become freeloaders and sponge off the state. People act as if they provided with palaces and easy living for people who come here, its a sh!tty existence living on benefits, no matter where you are from. I would have thought that most immigrants have come here to improve their lives.
As for why do they come here, you ahould have a look round the streets of cities in Italy.
I still dont believe for a minute that people move here to become freeloaders and sponge off the state. People act as if they provided with palaces and easy living for people who come here, its a sh!tty existence living on benefits, no matter where you are from. I would have thought that most immigrants have come here to improve their lives.
As for why do they come here, you ahould have a look round the streets of cities in Italy.
We are a soft state, Our Taxes are paying all these free loaders. NOT jus immigrants, Quite alot of brits do this u kno! Not jus immigrants. We pay ppl Job seekwers allowance to sit on there ar**s while others have to work,
We pay ppl to get pregnant (because thats another way of gettin away with gettin a job). I work 45 Hours a week to give a percentage to freeloaders. Your main worry shouldnt be the immigrants, It should be your fellow Brits. (Some of them anyway)
We pay ppl to get pregnant (because thats another way of gettin away with gettin a job). I work 45 Hours a week to give a percentage to freeloaders. Your main worry shouldnt be the immigrants, It should be your fellow Brits. (Some of them anyway)
nox.
If what I say on AB makes sense to others on here, such as anotheoldgitI and suffragette, then perhaps YOU are the one that needs some lessons in comprehension.
Please note the words in CAPITALS !!!!!
In simple English.... IF.. all the PRESENT population ( including present immigrants ) were EDUCATED to a high standard, willing to work and not leaving school as them wot don't no ow ter speak proper English like, then more than likely this Country would once again have all the manpower it needs, all paying tax and not claiming benefits as the easy way out.
The potential 200,000 immigrants from Romania might only equal 10% use to our economy , the rest are a drain, and so the cycle needs to be broken.
If what I say on AB makes sense to others on here, such as anotheoldgitI and suffragette, then perhaps YOU are the one that needs some lessons in comprehension.
Please note the words in CAPITALS !!!!!
In simple English.... IF.. all the PRESENT population ( including present immigrants ) were EDUCATED to a high standard, willing to work and not leaving school as them wot don't no ow ter speak proper English like, then more than likely this Country would once again have all the manpower it needs, all paying tax and not claiming benefits as the easy way out.
The potential 200,000 immigrants from Romania might only equal 10% use to our economy , the rest are a drain, and so the cycle needs to be broken.
Dassie,
That's exactly my point though...national insurance contributions go towards pensions and social security. It's not like a personal pension that you drawn on when you retire...it goes into a big pot.
So if you have someone who comes here, works for a few years, sending money home, he or she is contributing to a fund that they will probably not draw on.
So the end result is money going into the pot for pensions, which will benefit us in the end, not them!
That's exactly my point though...national insurance contributions go towards pensions and social security. It's not like a personal pension that you drawn on when you retire...it goes into a big pot.
So if you have someone who comes here, works for a few years, sending money home, he or she is contributing to a fund that they will probably not draw on.
So the end result is money going into the pot for pensions, which will benefit us in the end, not them!
anotheoldgit
You a Commie, and me a Conservative.
Good Lord...there must be something in our drinking water.
Couple of points:
Firstly, I don't for a moment consider your views racist at all. I can tell racist a mile off, and there are some (but not a lot) who post here. Our views are just diametrically opposed.
Secondly, I'm getting married next year, by which time I would've been with my partner for eight years. Ha! Gotcha on that one.
Lastly, I understand what you say about the level playing field...it's central to what I understand of the concept of 'Englishness'.
It's all to do with fair play (I've been reading 'Watching The English' by Kate Fox...brilliant book by a social anthropologist who examines what it means to be English...funny and scarily insightful - recommended).
Anyway, back to what I was saying...I agree in the level playing field concept, but I don't think, unless we completely eradicate sexism, racism, homophobia, Islamophobia, ageism etc, that the playing field will ever be level.
In some ways, the playing field will always be tilted and dependent on who you were, and where you were born, depends on whether you'll be on the side scoring the goals, or moaning about the unfairness of it all.
You a Commie, and me a Conservative.
Good Lord...there must be something in our drinking water.
Couple of points:
Firstly, I don't for a moment consider your views racist at all. I can tell racist a mile off, and there are some (but not a lot) who post here. Our views are just diametrically opposed.
Secondly, I'm getting married next year, by which time I would've been with my partner for eight years. Ha! Gotcha on that one.
Lastly, I understand what you say about the level playing field...it's central to what I understand of the concept of 'Englishness'.
It's all to do with fair play (I've been reading 'Watching The English' by Kate Fox...brilliant book by a social anthropologist who examines what it means to be English...funny and scarily insightful - recommended).
Anyway, back to what I was saying...I agree in the level playing field concept, but I don't think, unless we completely eradicate sexism, racism, homophobia, Islamophobia, ageism etc, that the playing field will ever be level.
In some ways, the playing field will always be tilted and dependent on who you were, and where you were born, depends on whether you'll be on the side scoring the goals, or moaning about the unfairness of it all.
sp.
Your NI contributions only go to YOUR State pension fund which YOU draw at 65, and does not go to any other social security pot. At the end of the day these former immigrants can claim a State pension based on their contributions even if their few years of contributing only yield say �1 a week in pension. My brother left the UK at the age of 25 and his forecast now shows a meagre pension based on his few years contribution. You never lose a pension entitlement.
Your NI contributions only go to YOUR State pension fund which YOU draw at 65, and does not go to any other social security pot. At the end of the day these former immigrants can claim a State pension based on their contributions even if their few years of contributing only yield say �1 a week in pension. My brother left the UK at the age of 25 and his forecast now shows a meagre pension based on his few years contribution. You never lose a pension entitlement.
pensions.....todays pensioners are paid from the contributions paid by the people who are working and contributing today. Therefore, when you retire, your pensions will come from the contributions of the people who are contributing at that time. You do not contribute to any form of personal fund, unless it is a private stand alone pension, or the recently introduced SSP (state second pension) which is supposed to top up your pension to a higher value. That is unless GB strips it before you get it!.
johnizere
YOUR contributions are what counts to your final State pension and weekly/monthly deductions from your wages/salary are recorded as such by the Newcastle office. You only get out what you put in otherwise if it came from a Pot then everyone would claim the maximum State pension wouldn't they. You get a State pension relative to what you pay in. No more, no less. That's why each individual is able to get a tailored State pension forecast.
YOUR contributions are what counts to your final State pension and weekly/monthly deductions from your wages/salary are recorded as such by the Newcastle office. You only get out what you put in otherwise if it came from a Pot then everyone would claim the maximum State pension wouldn't they. You get a State pension relative to what you pay in. No more, no less. That's why each individual is able to get a tailored State pension forecast.
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