Elton Musk's Plan

[Khandro]

'Billionaire Elon Musk asked Twitter users to weigh in on a plan to end the war which included proposing UN-supervised elections in the four occupied regions and recognising Crimea, which Moscow seized in 2014, as Russian. The plan drew immediate condemnation from Ukrainians, including Mr Zelenskyy.'

What do you think of it?

[Deskdiary]

"Musk is an idiot"

You may not like some of the things he says (I certainly don't), but to describe the world's richest man with an estimated worth of £200bn as an "idiot" is way wide of the mark...and factually incorrect.

You don't become as successful as Musk by being an idiot.

[Gromit]

He may be very rich, but he has done a lot of idiotic things.

[sp1814]

Khandro

The problem with the plan is that the four provinces that Russia has annexed are pro-Russia, with locals who consider themselves Russia Rather than Ukrainian (over-simplification but essentially true).

Two area (Donetsk People's Republic and the Luhansk People's Republic - have been fighting Ukrainian government forces since 2014.

So if the UN imposed free and fair elections, what happens if these areas choose to side with Russia?

Do you think Zelenskyy would accept that?

Wouldn’t Russia be then in a position to demand UN-overseen elections in all Ukrainian territories?

[sp1814]

Ignore all the typos.

[Khandro]

sp: //So if the UN imposed free and fair elections, what happens if these areas choose to side with Russia?//

No problem, so be it.

[ichkeria]

"The problem with the plan is that the four provinces that Russia has annexed are pro-Russia, with locals who consider themselves Russia Rather than Ukrainian (over-simplification but essentially true).
"
Untrue. To put it mildly (!)

"Two area (Donetsk People's Republic and the Luhansk People's Republic - have been fighting Ukrainian government forces since 2014.

Also untrue. Those are pseudo-"republics" contrived by Russia in connivance with local pro-russian gangsters, effectively, It's true that those regions have more "pro-russian" inhabitants than other parts of Ukraine, but around the time they broke away, thousands of pro-Ukrainains fled. (Crimeal which only voted 57-ish for independence in 1991 in contrast to other regions 85-95%) also has been settled with 500,000 to 800,00 Russians since that was annexed).

"So if the UN imposed free and fair elections, what happens if these areas choose to side with Russia? Do you think Zelenskyy would accept that? Wouldn’t Russia be then in a position to demand UN-overseen elections in all Ukrainian territories? "

The problem which immediately kicks any of this nonsense of Musks into touch is that the Russians wouldn't accept it because they know fine well that any sort of free elections would be lost.
But the only reason anyone is talking about this is because in desperation putin decided to call pretend referendums in areas he is trying to ethnically cleanse, areas which are war zones, where at least half the population has fled. And areas by the way which the kremlin has admitted does not know the borders of!
The whole thing is daft beyond belief.
Elon Musk is a man of many talents, and has provided great help to Ukraine with his Starlink mobile internet. He should stick to what he's good at.

[sp1814]

The four provinces in question are pro-Russian.

[Untitled]

if russia could have taken those places with free and fair referendums then they would have done it... they'd never agree to doing it like that and ukraine would never agree to give them crimea... it's a non starter

[sp1814]

“ It's true that those regions have more "pro-russian" inhabitants than other parts of Ukraine, but around the time they broke away, thousands of pro-Ukrainains fled.”

…which makes them ‘to-Russian’.

It’s all about the maths.

[ichkeria]

"The four provinces in question are pro-Russian. "

They aren't. Quite simply.

[sp1814]

Khandro

It’s not likely to be a “so be it” situation as the Ukraine would not stand to see part of its sovereign territory handed over to another country.

The plan is unworkable.

[sp1814]

The DRO and LPR have been fighting the Ukrainian forces for eight years. They are pro-Russian.

[sp1814]

*DRP!

[ichkeria]

Russian forces are collapsing just about everywhere in Ukraine just now. Kherson is on the brink.
The only worry anyone has is the nuclear bit.
Russia's whacking great submarine the Belgorod, with its "doomsday" drones, allegedly, has left port, although it's almost certainly not headed anywhere we should worry about.
And a train associated with the nuclear command is supposedly heading to Ukraine. That is Putin's suicide option tho.

[mushroom25]

// looks likely it will get in but then NATO is on Russian border //

NATO has been on the Russian border ever since the USSR dissolved, and was on the USSR border before that as far back as 1949. Norway were signatories to the original treaty, and share a land border with Russia in the arctic.

[Khandro]

ichi ;//"So if the UN imposed free and fair elections, what happens if these areas choose to side with Russia? Do you think Zelenskyy would accept that?//

He'd be, and look pretty damn stupid if he didn't.
I reiterate; the plan is good. Crimea should never have been ceded to Ukraine. How much more blood do you think is acceptable?

[ichkeria]

"The DRO and LPR have been fighting the Ukrainian forces for eight years. They are pro-Russian. "

I don't mean to be rude sp but perhaps you should read up a bit about this. I haven't really time to go into it all now, further to what I posted above.

[Untitled]

The donetsk and luhansk "republics" are puppet states sp... i don't think we can assume that their secessionism is genuine... even if a large number of the population favoured joining russia it's very doubtful that would still be true after the invasion...

as for crimea... it was ukranian territory and russia seized it by force... that surely cannot be allowed in light of this year's events

[ichkeria]

" Question Author
ichi ;//"So if the UN imposed free and fair elections, what happens if these areas choose to side with Russia? Do you think Zelenskyy would accept that?// "

You are quoting someone else's bizarre objection, not mine, to a plan which is daft for other reasons.
This discussion is becoming as surreal as the idea in the firtst place.
The thing is dead in the water: he replaced it with anopther poll: elections for Donbas and Crimea.
Elections for Donbas were part of the Minsk agreement which Russia tore up in February. You cannot negotiate with Russia, certainly not with Putin. I find it staggering that there are apparently sensible people who think that is still possible.

[Zacs-Master]

Apologies if this has already been pointed out but....
the people of Donbas and Crimea voted to be part of the Ukraine back in 1991.