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Gordon Brown, "Uk Could Become A Failed State" ......
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Well if it does it'll be primarily your beloved Noo Labour's fault me old china, for enacting the devolution catastrophe. Is it time to reverse that and bring the Union back together? TBH I think England will thrive without the millstones of Wales, Scotland and NI anyway so it's them that need to get their April in gear.
Well if it does it'll be primarily your beloved Noo Labour's fault me old china, for enacting the devolution catastrophe. Is it time to reverse that and bring the Union back together? TBH I think England will thrive without the millstones of Wales, Scotland and NI anyway so it's them that need to get their April in gear.
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I’m afraid I really don’t get where you’re coming from. When you said this: "...but the British seem to be rapidly giving up on Britain." I assumed that by “Britain” you meant the political entity that was Britain. But in the last few posts you seem more concerned about the niceties of what the remainder should be called were Scotland to gain independence
14:26 Tue 26th Jan 2021
here's another link saying that most of the act of union would stay:
https:/
https:/
The idea that the UK could go on calling itself the UK of Great Britain - with a massive chunk of Great Britain disunited from it - is laughable it would be a complete self-contradiction. The letter (and it is a letter) says that the Union would remain because the UK was devised as a name with the incorporation of Ireland - but most of Ireland is no longer part of the Union, NI way well depart too, and that act was based on a union between ireland and the Kingdom of Great Britain, as laid out in the original act of union. There is no UK without the union between Scotland and england because that Union is central to the founding of the UK. You do not understand the history of your own country tora. But I think you probably represent the majority, who simply do not care if Britain continues to exist or not. What a pity.
"The idea that the UK could go on calling itself the UK of Great Britain - with a massive chunk of Great Britain disunited from it - is laughable" - what massive chunk? we are talking about 8%.
untitled/elipsis, what do you think of the article at 11:39?
also find me an expert saying what you are saying then I'll start to give it some credibility, at the moment it's just opinion based on illogic.
untitled/elipsis, what do you think of the article at 11:39?
also find me an expert saying what you are saying then I'll start to give it some credibility, at the moment it's just opinion based on illogic.
I’m afraid I really don’t get where you’re coming from. When you said this:
"...but the British seem to be rapidly giving up on Britain."
I assumed that by “Britain” you meant the political entity that was Britain. But in the last few posts you seem more concerned about the niceties of what the remainder should be called were Scotland to gain independence. So which is it? The name is largely a fuss about nothing. The island that contains England, Scotland and Wales is known geographically as “Britain” and there is no reason why that should not continue. England and Wales, together with Northern Ireland can continue to be called the United Kingdom. There is no more reason to change its name than there is to change name of the European Union now that the UK has left. The EU lost about 13% of its population when the UK left; the UK would lose only 8% of its population if Scotland leaves.
You still seem to be suggesting that the 90% of people who do not live in Scotland are somehow responsible for the potential break up of the UK. There is only one group who are responsible for that and that’s the Scots who are supportive of independence. Few of the other 90%, as far as I can see, are clamouring for the break up. The Scottish Independence movement has been bubbling under since the 1960s. The SNP gained more prominence under the Callaghan government as the votes of its Westminster MPs were required to keep that government afloat. But far and away the greatest catalyst to the quest for independence came with the ridiculous devolution arrangements visited on the three minor nations by the Blair administration. Devolution would never satisfy the SNP and the devolved powers they have been granted have served only to strengthen their resolve to seek the ultimate prize.
Still you suggest this:
//But I do think the ball is in our court at the moment so to speak.//
Assuming by “our court” you mean England’s, why do you think that? I’ll ask again (because, short of suggesting the House of Lords be reformed, you haven’t really said) what are the 90% of non-Scots supposed to do with the ball that is in their court? Tell me what it is that the remainder of the British can do to prevent Scottish Independence. The English are not craving Scotland’s independence (though nobody could blame them if they were). The damage to the integrity of Britain, or the UK was done by the Blair government and is being perpetuated and built on by the SNP. English voters were to blame for putting their trust in Labour in 1997 but there’s nothing they can do about it now.
"...but the British seem to be rapidly giving up on Britain."
I assumed that by “Britain” you meant the political entity that was Britain. But in the last few posts you seem more concerned about the niceties of what the remainder should be called were Scotland to gain independence. So which is it? The name is largely a fuss about nothing. The island that contains England, Scotland and Wales is known geographically as “Britain” and there is no reason why that should not continue. England and Wales, together with Northern Ireland can continue to be called the United Kingdom. There is no more reason to change its name than there is to change name of the European Union now that the UK has left. The EU lost about 13% of its population when the UK left; the UK would lose only 8% of its population if Scotland leaves.
You still seem to be suggesting that the 90% of people who do not live in Scotland are somehow responsible for the potential break up of the UK. There is only one group who are responsible for that and that’s the Scots who are supportive of independence. Few of the other 90%, as far as I can see, are clamouring for the break up. The Scottish Independence movement has been bubbling under since the 1960s. The SNP gained more prominence under the Callaghan government as the votes of its Westminster MPs were required to keep that government afloat. But far and away the greatest catalyst to the quest for independence came with the ridiculous devolution arrangements visited on the three minor nations by the Blair administration. Devolution would never satisfy the SNP and the devolved powers they have been granted have served only to strengthen their resolve to seek the ultimate prize.
Still you suggest this:
//But I do think the ball is in our court at the moment so to speak.//
Assuming by “our court” you mean England’s, why do you think that? I’ll ask again (because, short of suggesting the House of Lords be reformed, you haven’t really said) what are the 90% of non-Scots supposed to do with the ball that is in their court? Tell me what it is that the remainder of the British can do to prevent Scottish Independence. The English are not craving Scotland’s independence (though nobody could blame them if they were). The damage to the integrity of Britain, or the UK was done by the Blair government and is being perpetuated and built on by the SNP. English voters were to blame for putting their trust in Labour in 1997 but there’s nothing they can do about it now.
bang on as usual judge, BA.
"There is no more reason to change its name than there is to change name of the European Union now that the UK has left. The EU lost about 13% of its population when the UK left; the UK would lose only 8% of its population if Scotland leaves. " - it seems some struggle with that concept.
"There is no more reason to change its name than there is to change name of the European Union now that the UK has left. The EU lost about 13% of its population when the UK left; the UK would lose only 8% of its population if Scotland leaves. " - it seems some struggle with that concept.
The name of our country is not the
United Kingdom
of
Great Britain
and
Northern Ireland
it's the
United
Kingdom of Great Britain
and
Northern Ireland
Since the Kingdom of Great Britain would no longer exist, the name of the country would have to change. Probably the simplest change would be to simply call it the United Kingdom, as it is already commonly known. But the name change demonstrates that the country as we know it would no longer exist.
United Kingdom
of
Great Britain
and
Northern Ireland
it's the
United
Kingdom of Great Britain
and
Northern Ireland
Since the Kingdom of Great Britain would no longer exist, the name of the country would have to change. Probably the simplest change would be to simply call it the United Kingdom, as it is already commonly known. But the name change demonstrates that the country as we know it would no longer exist.
//Since the Kingdom of Great Britain would no longer exist, the name of the country would have to change. Probably the simplest change would be to simply call it the United Kingdom, as it is already commonly known. But the name change demonstrates that the country as we know it would no longer exist.//
It wouldn't matter what it was called. I suggest it remains as "United Kingdom" simply to avoid confusion abroad as many people from other countries are confused enough about "Britain", "The British Isles", the "UK", etc.
It wouldn't matter what it was called. I suggest it remains as "United Kingdom" simply to avoid confusion abroad as many people from other countries are confused enough about "Britain", "The British Isles", the "UK", etc.
//I assumed that by “Britain” you meant the political entity that was Britain. But in the last few posts you seem more concerned about the niceties of what the remainder should be called were Scotland to gain independence. So which is it? //
The latter is a symbol of the former... as Ellipsis says, the Kingdom of Great Britain will be dissolved if Scotland leaves it, and with it will go the country in which I was born. I identify with that country - which is to me more meaningful than the smaller entity of England - and do not wish to see it disestablished. You obviously disagree, which is why you can't understand. It's not important to you. I had thought that more people also identified with Britain but I now think I was wrong.
"You still seem to be suggesting that the 90% of people who do not live in Scotland are somehow responsible for the potential break up of the UK. There is only one group who are responsible for that and that’s the Scots who are supportive of independence. "
If our country is on the verge of breaking up then I humbly suggest we ought to try and prevent that from happening. As to how - reforming parliament's second chamber seems to be a good idea to me though it may be too late. I also think the English and Scottish should take less of a dismissive attitude to each other, starting with their leaders but the rest of us too.
I also think you are ignoring Brexit as a catalyst for breaking up the Union... the question was settled in 2014 and in my opinion was highly unlikely to come up again. But Brexit has dragged Scotland out of Europe against its will - ditto Northern Ireland. Nothing to be done about that now of course but it is an important factor...
I don't how many times it needs repeating, but it's NOT about population.
The latter is a symbol of the former... as Ellipsis says, the Kingdom of Great Britain will be dissolved if Scotland leaves it, and with it will go the country in which I was born. I identify with that country - which is to me more meaningful than the smaller entity of England - and do not wish to see it disestablished. You obviously disagree, which is why you can't understand. It's not important to you. I had thought that more people also identified with Britain but I now think I was wrong.
"You still seem to be suggesting that the 90% of people who do not live in Scotland are somehow responsible for the potential break up of the UK. There is only one group who are responsible for that and that’s the Scots who are supportive of independence. "
If our country is on the verge of breaking up then I humbly suggest we ought to try and prevent that from happening. As to how - reforming parliament's second chamber seems to be a good idea to me though it may be too late. I also think the English and Scottish should take less of a dismissive attitude to each other, starting with their leaders but the rest of us too.
I also think you are ignoring Brexit as a catalyst for breaking up the Union... the question was settled in 2014 and in my opinion was highly unlikely to come up again. But Brexit has dragged Scotland out of Europe against its will - ditto Northern Ireland. Nothing to be done about that now of course but it is an important factor...
I don't how many times it needs repeating, but it's NOT about population.
//But Brexit has dragged Scotland out of Europe against its will..//
As was London, on a similar percentage majority (60% to 40% compared to Scotland's 62% to 38%) but with almost twice the population. I don't hear any widespread campaigns for London to gain its independence from the UK.
The Brexit question is moot. As I said earlier, Scottish voters should have been aware that there was a chance the UK would leave the EU when they voted to remain part of the UK in 2014. I don't think you will find too many people in England sharing your concerns that the UK will be broken up if the Scots have their way. Your concerns seem to be rooted in nostalgia and longing for the country in which you were born to remain untouched by such events. Other than that, and the nebulous "stronger together" philosophy, what do you think will be lost (to the remainder) if the UK loses Scotland as a member?
As was London, on a similar percentage majority (60% to 40% compared to Scotland's 62% to 38%) but with almost twice the population. I don't hear any widespread campaigns for London to gain its independence from the UK.
The Brexit question is moot. As I said earlier, Scottish voters should have been aware that there was a chance the UK would leave the EU when they voted to remain part of the UK in 2014. I don't think you will find too many people in England sharing your concerns that the UK will be broken up if the Scots have their way. Your concerns seem to be rooted in nostalgia and longing for the country in which you were born to remain untouched by such events. Other than that, and the nebulous "stronger together" philosophy, what do you think will be lost (to the remainder) if the UK loses Scotland as a member?
Nothing New Judge... you dismiss it as "nostalgia" if you like - except that I am not lamenting something that is past, I am hoping that something which is currently in danger and has a non-zero chance of being rescued can be protected. You would not be so dismissive if the concept of being British meant anything to you but it does to me. I stand by my earlier comment - the British are giving up on Britain and I think that is profoundly sad. But no country lasts forever I suppose... still it is a depressing way for the history of the UK to end.
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