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Are There Benefits To Staying In The Eu

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emmie | 11:36 Wed 05th Dec 2018 | News
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i would like to know, no link..

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Whether or not anybody is ideologically committed to Brexit or not and to what degree is not really the point. This deal involves the UK leaving the EU in name only. It also jeopardises the integrity of the UK and threatens to tie the UK to a Treaty from which there is no escape clause (depending solely on the goodwill of the Euromaniacs to "allow" no doubt under...
12:07 Wed 05th Dec 2018
There are, but the crux of the issue is whether or not they are greater than leaving.

There are no simple answers, mainly because, despite all the rhetoric and argument, no-one has a clue how leaving is going to affect any of the involved countries.
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it looks to me like a No deal could still leave us tied to the EU, i just wanted to know if that happens are their any benefits for staying.
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Liam Fox thinks we are going to get stitched up, my words not his.. he can explain it better than I.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46450227
in the sense that staying is better than what is on the table emmie, yes.
In my humble opinion the only question that has to be answered is 'Do you want to be part of a federal Europe based on socialist/communist principles or not.'
All economic and other obfuscations are secondary or irrelevant.
Research this and its author Spinelli:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ventotene_Manifesto
On that subject though, TTT, would you *really* rather stay in the EU than accept this deal?

I suppose what I am asking is how ideologically committed are you to Brexit. You've made it clear that you'd rather No Deal, but if that isn't going to happen, would you genuinely think it better to stay in?
Yes Emmie lots, I researched til I was purple about this just to be fair and to make sure I wasn't having a knee jerk reaction to my desire to remain a member for the EU.
I came to this conclusion:-
We export 50% of our exports tariff free to EU countries plus we get a say in deciding how Trade rules are drawn up. We do pay £13.1bn to be members however but we get £4.5bn of spending, so that's only actually £8.5 bn for which we get tariff free trade with thre EU etc which will end, and also we are likely to still have to pay for years the way things are looking.
All the Brexiteers jump up and down yelling 'Sovereignty' etc but whilst we're in the EU we trade that word for a place at the table and for global influence which we will not have to the same level once we leave. On top of that we won't be truly independent of the rest of the world, we will still be in NATO, WTO, UN etc, it's just not possible to go back to some sort of glorious independent colonialist era that some seem to dream of, we'll just be the awkward out of it with no influence poor relation.
There are roughly 4.5million foreign workers, including East Europeans, West Europeans and workers from other parts of the world. Overwhelmingly most foreign workers (approx 3 million) are from India and china, so leaving the EU will not cure that alleged 'problem'. In fact it's not a problem, without foreign workers our infrastructure will grind to a clanging halt. We need foreign workers and their Tax revenue. It has put a strain on housing and the NHS, but we cannot do without them, and we need to tackle that problem differently than banning freedom of movement within the EU because that won't help.
The list to be honest, is endless, and the above merely scratches the surface of several pertinent points which make me a staunch Remainer.
Whether or not anybody is ideologically committed to Brexit or not and to what degree is not really the point. This deal involves the UK leaving the EU in name only. It also jeopardises the integrity of the UK and threatens to tie the UK to a Treaty from which there is no escape clause (depending solely on the goodwill of the Euromaniacs to "allow" no doubt under conditions which suit them entirely).

In that respect remaining in the EU is better than this deal. So the question should really be would we like to remain in the EU where at least Article 50 is at our disposal and the Euromaniacs do not get to split the United Kingdom, or remain in the EU in all but name and be unable ever to leave except my the consent of our Lords and Masters.

Of course if Parliament had any integrity it would have made it known from the beginning that we would leave under No Deal if what was on offer did not suit us. But they largely burnt that bridge (long before yesterday) which is why the deal constructed by the EU is so dire. But of course we're dealing with politicians of whom at least 50% want to remain and almost all of whom have no vision or confidence in the country over which they preside.
Not having to fund a load of other countries that are going bust and looking for a free handout through an organisation that cant even balance its books.
I suppose the claim that could legitimately made, though, is that even while this deal doesn't take us out of the EU, it gets us infinitely closer to leaving than staying in would.

I would rather not see us accept this deal, and I can fully understand why Leavers don't like it either -- it's rotten. But still, the question I have earlier remains.

On a related note, at what point does a second referendum become beneficial for Brexiteers as well?
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so in the words of someone famous, we are stuffed whatever we do. Not what i voted for at all,
As AH says, there are benefits to staying but do they outweigh the benefits of leaving?

As for "no-one has a clue how leaving is going to affect any of the involved countries." this is quite true but so is "no-one has a clue how STAYING is going to affect any of the involved countries becuase it has become quite clear over the last two years the EU do intend to form a single state. (Which I happen to believe is the only way it can work long term)
I must admit that the whole scenario has become too complex for me to understand and be able to work out as the sands are shifting on a daily basis. I find myself agreeing with NJ, especially his last para.

Remainers & Leavers should unite to condemn the atrocious way our Govt has handled this situation, which was largely catalysed by DC jumping ship.
I'm fairly sure that May's "No Deal is better than a bad deal" rhetoric was designed to do just that, NJ. The problem is not that the government gave up threatening this, but that it was akin to telling the EU that if they didn't give us what we wanted we would shoot ourselves.

Needless to say, as negotiating tactics go, such a thread of self-harm is not a very successful one.
Jeremy Vine on R2 has just summed it up perfectly. 52% of the population wanted 'sweet' and 48 wanted 'savoury' so what they're giving us is a bacon trifle!
Fundamentally Europe has a choice between fostering mutual dependence or heading back to the bad old days of "every power for itself." Needless to say, I think for all the problems in the former approach it is considerably better than the alternative.

As for more concrete benefits - frictionless trading with our closest neighbours (with whom we do about half of our trade as kval says), standing up to tech giants like google over privacy, access to labour and skills which our economy needs, co-operation in science/technology research.

Of course it is technically possible to have these benefits without membership, provided we were willing to join EFTA and then perhaps gradually transition out over the long term. But the government ruled that out early on.

No-deal would overwhelmingly likely be a disaster for our economy and I expect would carry a significant risk of breaking up the UK.
On an entirely unrelated note, any chance you'll be getting your avatar back, Krom?
I will soon. I changed my AB e-mail address this morning and it appears to have spooked Gravatar, which is a pain to fix on my phone. Will need to fix it on my PC later...
jim: "On that subject though, TTT, would you *really* rather stay in the EU than accept this deal? " - yes I would, I'm on record here as saying so many times. I'm a pragmatist and and to me the deal has all the detriments of the EU with no say. At least in the EU we have a modicum of influence. I would rather leave with no deal though if these are the choices. Sadly I think that the PM has done a deal with an encore in place, once booted out by parliament, they'll give a couple of minor points and it will be accepted. BRINO has been the plan all along. That's what you get when you get a vegan to arrange a BBQ.
I've seen you say that you'd rather stay in the EU, I guess I just didn't quite believe what I was reading. My apologies for doubting your sincerity then, and thanks for answering the question.

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