My Dearest Friend Ducksie - R I P
ChatterBank4 mins ago
Brexit, Am I Missing Something
When the referendum took place I didn’t believe what either side were saying and looked at what I thought would be best both for me, my family and the country and voted remain.
Now that we are leaving I’m trying to see the positive and see how it’s going to improve things for me and my family in particular and I’m struggling to see any benefit.
I’ve noticed that lots of people on here seem very keen Brexiters so can you tell me how you see the benefits of leaving to you and your family. Do you see yourselves being better off etc?
Now that we are leaving I’m trying to see the positive and see how it’s going to improve things for me and my family in particular and I’m struggling to see any benefit.
I’ve noticed that lots of people on here seem very keen Brexiters so can you tell me how you see the benefits of leaving to you and your family. Do you see yourselves being better off etc?
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NJ:
I believe the figure we pay is nearer £8.5b. I’m not sure where you get the £300 per taxpayer figure from.
I’m pretty sure tariffs could be more severe (especially under WTO rules).
Fishing contributes less that .5 of a % to our GDP, so let’s not get too hung up about that. We will still have to reach an agreement with the EU on quotas and access to each other’s waters after Brexit.
Back in June the FT reported that a letter seen by them from Mel Stride, financial secretary to the Treasury, to Charlie Elphicke, MP for Dover, read “The government aims to keep VAT processes after EU exit as close as possible to what they are now.” So I wouldn’t get all excited about that.
I believe the figure we pay is nearer £8.5b. I’m not sure where you get the £300 per taxpayer figure from.
I’m pretty sure tariffs could be more severe (especially under WTO rules).
Fishing contributes less that .5 of a % to our GDP, so let’s not get too hung up about that. We will still have to reach an agreement with the EU on quotas and access to each other’s waters after Brexit.
Back in June the FT reported that a letter seen by them from Mel Stride, financial secretary to the Treasury, to Charlie Elphicke, MP for Dover, read “The government aims to keep VAT processes after EU exit as close as possible to what they are now.” So I wouldn’t get all excited about that.
“I believe the figure we pay is nearer £8.5b. I’m not sure where you get the £300 per taxpayer figure from.”
OK then, £288 per taxpayer (£8.5bn divided by 30m taxpayers).
“Fishing contributes less that .5 of a % to our GDP, so let’s not get too hung up about that.”
I’m not hung up about it. You keep asking what the EU dictates the UK must do. I keep giving you examples (of which fishing is but one).
“We will still have to reach an agreement with the EU on quotas and access to each other’s waters after Brexit.”
Er…why? There will be no necessity for the UK to provide access to its waters when it becomes a “third country” (unless, of course, as part of a “deal” to see us remain in the EU in all but name, the CFP continues to apply).
“The government aims to keep VAT processes after EU exit as close as possible to what they are now.” So I wouldn’t get all excited about that.
I’m not excited at all about any of this. I don’t expect much to change immediately, especially something so complex as VAT. But once again this is an example (which you asked for) of the EU dictating UK policy. You didn’t ask for examples of things that I expect to immediately change. As I keep saying, it’s not the content of these dictats, it’s the fact that they can be imposed at all by a foreign body. I don’t care if the UK keeps VAT forevermore or ditches it immediately so long as it a decision taken by the UK Parliament. It is the ability to do what we want that is important to me. This is something you seem either unable to grasp or are being deliberately obtuse. I’m not sure which it is.
OK then, £288 per taxpayer (£8.5bn divided by 30m taxpayers).
“Fishing contributes less that .5 of a % to our GDP, so let’s not get too hung up about that.”
I’m not hung up about it. You keep asking what the EU dictates the UK must do. I keep giving you examples (of which fishing is but one).
“We will still have to reach an agreement with the EU on quotas and access to each other’s waters after Brexit.”
Er…why? There will be no necessity for the UK to provide access to its waters when it becomes a “third country” (unless, of course, as part of a “deal” to see us remain in the EU in all but name, the CFP continues to apply).
“The government aims to keep VAT processes after EU exit as close as possible to what they are now.” So I wouldn’t get all excited about that.
I’m not excited at all about any of this. I don’t expect much to change immediately, especially something so complex as VAT. But once again this is an example (which you asked for) of the EU dictating UK policy. You didn’t ask for examples of things that I expect to immediately change. As I keep saying, it’s not the content of these dictats, it’s the fact that they can be imposed at all by a foreign body. I don’t care if the UK keeps VAT forevermore or ditches it immediately so long as it a decision taken by the UK Parliament. It is the ability to do what we want that is important to me. This is something you seem either unable to grasp or are being deliberately obtuse. I’m not sure which it is.
The Land, the UK was part of the organisation which took the name EU after introducing changes. Those changes were not the exclusive product of the UK and, yes, the UK could not dictate onto the EU its own rules but was able to bend the membership's overall rules and achieve a unique/exclusive status. This is not enough for the UK, but the overall rules themselves were voted in, they were not dictated by any one country or select few countries.
Zacs and Judge, what I think people should not forget, and indeed worry about a bit, is that the UK is not exactly a paragon of virtue when it comes to managing the resources of the sea. In fact, the UK sent a naval force to protect its fishermen while catching fish in foreign waters where the government concerned wanted to set up a management regime. The UK had to accept Iceland's right to manage their waters and Iceland seasonally banned their own fleet from spawning grounds and for decades from fishing certain species altogether - which they themselves had overfished and now took this drastic action to redress matters (successfully). The fear has to be that, as already is being hinted, UK fishermen will get stuck in and that the already overfished grounds will suffer even more. One good thing will come from Brexit: On most/all things that go wrong it will no longer be possible to blame the foreigners. Transparency at last, no hiding place from reality.
Zacs and Judge, what I think people should not forget, and indeed worry about a bit, is that the UK is not exactly a paragon of virtue when it comes to managing the resources of the sea. In fact, the UK sent a naval force to protect its fishermen while catching fish in foreign waters where the government concerned wanted to set up a management regime. The UK had to accept Iceland's right to manage their waters and Iceland seasonally banned their own fleet from spawning grounds and for decades from fishing certain species altogether - which they themselves had overfished and now took this drastic action to redress matters (successfully). The fear has to be that, as already is being hinted, UK fishermen will get stuck in and that the already overfished grounds will suffer even more. One good thing will come from Brexit: On most/all things that go wrong it will no longer be possible to blame the foreigners. Transparency at last, no hiding place from reality.
NJ, I’m not unable to grasp anything. What you seem unable to grasp is that the examples you give are minimal offshoot ones. You’ve failed, yet again, to convince me it will all be worth it.
Oh, and on the fishing policy thing......
From a seemingly similar standpoint to yours in the Guardian:
‘the North Sea, the Channel and the Irish Sea are shared. Britain will face tough annual renegotiations, as EU member states do not want to give up their lucrative rights in shared fishing ground’
From the FT:
‘the English fleet traditionally catches its fish in Irish, French and Norwegian, as well as UK, waters. “Retaining access to those waters will be an essential demand for the UK,” he [Andy Lebrecht] says’
‘The EU can be expected to resist strongly any attempt to reset such a well-established basis for quota allocation’
‘the UK fishing industry depends heavily on exports to the EU, so is vulnerable to tariffs. Britain exported £921m of fish (including £224m salmon) to the EU in 2015, whereas total landings (the amount brought to the UK) were worth £775m. “Countries such as France and Spain would have every incentive to demand high tariffs on fish import‘
Oh, and on the fishing policy thing......
From a seemingly similar standpoint to yours in the Guardian:
‘the North Sea, the Channel and the Irish Sea are shared. Britain will face tough annual renegotiations, as EU member states do not want to give up their lucrative rights in shared fishing ground’
From the FT:
‘the English fleet traditionally catches its fish in Irish, French and Norwegian, as well as UK, waters. “Retaining access to those waters will be an essential demand for the UK,” he [Andy Lebrecht] says’
‘The EU can be expected to resist strongly any attempt to reset such a well-established basis for quota allocation’
‘the UK fishing industry depends heavily on exports to the EU, so is vulnerable to tariffs. Britain exported £921m of fish (including £224m salmon) to the EU in 2015, whereas total landings (the amount brought to the UK) were worth £775m. “Countries such as France and Spain would have every incentive to demand high tariffs on fish import‘
I've no intention of trying to persuade you it is all worth it Zacs.
The last paragraph of my post at 13:32 sums up the situation as I see it. I respect your stance on the matter without calling for proof or examples. If only you'd respect mine in a similar fashion we'd each save ourselves a lot of time.
The last paragraph of my post at 13:32 sums up the situation as I see it. I respect your stance on the matter without calling for proof or examples. If only you'd respect mine in a similar fashion we'd each save ourselves a lot of time.
I'm really not sure how much 'freedom' Brexiteers think we will have, except a vague sense of national identity and the ability to go forward on our glorious own.
The truth of the matter is that prosperity gives people freedom and most have agreed that many normal hardworking people will be hard hit financially. Couple that with the inability to be free to live anywhere in Europe as we can now and to work anywhere in Europe easily, we have lost freedoms hand over fist in an attempt to grab back some sort of fictitious glory days of the Empire.
In my own industry already actors and crew from the South of Ireland are being actively recruited and the UK folks prohibited from applying for certain jobs for native British speakers because Production Companies are afraid of employing us because going on it will be so hard for UK people to work in Europe in our industry. The matter is being discussed by BECTU and Equity at the moment as UK actors are finding themselves internationally unemployable, which obviously won't matter to many of you, but it bloody well matters to us.
The truth of the matter is that prosperity gives people freedom and most have agreed that many normal hardworking people will be hard hit financially. Couple that with the inability to be free to live anywhere in Europe as we can now and to work anywhere in Europe easily, we have lost freedoms hand over fist in an attempt to grab back some sort of fictitious glory days of the Empire.
In my own industry already actors and crew from the South of Ireland are being actively recruited and the UK folks prohibited from applying for certain jobs for native British speakers because Production Companies are afraid of employing us because going on it will be so hard for UK people to work in Europe in our industry. The matter is being discussed by BECTU and Equity at the moment as UK actors are finding themselves internationally unemployable, which obviously won't matter to many of you, but it bloody well matters to us.
2019 - Britain chooses to stay in EU.
2020 - EU imposes Europe wide tax to balance books.
Britain objects. Britain overruled.
2021 - EU introduces Europe wide military.
Britain objects. Britain overruled.
2022. - EU demands immigrant quotas on all members.
Britain objects. Britain overruled.
2023 - EU demands an additional green tax.
Britain objects. Britain overruled.
2020 - EU imposes Europe wide tax to balance books.
Britain objects. Britain overruled.
2021 - EU introduces Europe wide military.
Britain objects. Britain overruled.
2022. - EU demands immigrant quotas on all members.
Britain objects. Britain overruled.
2023 - EU demands an additional green tax.
Britain objects. Britain overruled.
We shouldn't laugh at luvvies. It's got to be the hardest job in the world. (after teaching, natch)
https:/
https:/
C&P for people who can't (be bothered) open links.
'Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs.
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, brought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.
UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.
Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.
39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU.
The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.
Name one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.
I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.'
'Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs.
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, brought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.
UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.
Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.
39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU.
The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.
Name one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.
I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.'
With respect Spice......You missed the last bit.
//I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.
Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't. If you think the EU is a good idea.
1/ You haven't read the party manifesto of The European Peoples' Party.
2/ You haven't had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy tearing your business down.
3/ You don't care.
Brexit means the dissembling stops and Westminster is held to account for the good and the bad on every decision. As it should be. No wonder the Camerons and Blairs are terrified at the prospect..."//
This is the bit that makes me sit up.."nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany."
An army of muslim conscripts. The new mamluk army, to keep the dissenters in line. The manpower now exists.
//I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.
Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't. If you think the EU is a good idea.
1/ You haven't read the party manifesto of The European Peoples' Party.
2/ You haven't had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy tearing your business down.
3/ You don't care.
Brexit means the dissembling stops and Westminster is held to account for the good and the bad on every decision. As it should be. No wonder the Camerons and Blairs are terrified at the prospect..."//
This is the bit that makes me sit up.."nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany."
An army of muslim conscripts. The new mamluk army, to keep the dissenters in line. The manpower now exists.
So you own no paintings, listen to no music, watch no television Spicey? Come on, 'proper jobs' is a jibe beneath you, you have no idea what is involved in acting, it's not going to parties and rocking up 5 minutes before your scene you know, it's exhausting, difficult, sometimes dangerous and often leads to physical injury or the exacerbating of existing conditions, and at the bottom of the tree really demoralising, but it is a 'proper job' whatever you might like to think.
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