Should These Women Have Even Been Allowed To Enter Court In Their Burkas?

[anotheoldgit]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4494956/Mother-daughter-court-terror-plot.html

/// District Judge Emma Arbuthnot had to ask both women – who appeared in burkas which covered their entire bodies and faces – to lift their veils, as their eyes were hidden by dark mesh screens. She said: ‘Miss Boular and Miss Dich, would you mind removing at least part of your veils so I can see part of your eyes?’ ///

/// Boular responded by lifting her veil for a few seconds, while her mother sat motionless and refused to expose her face throughout the preliminary hearing. ///

[andy-hughes]

Togo - //You are allowed to put Jedi on a census form as you religion, so why cant a Darth Vador costume be allowed. He was a Jedi and it is an officially recognised religion. ;)) //

Because wearing a Darth Vadar costume is not a proscribed aspect of the Jedi faith - any more than turning up in Obi Wan's robes would be acceptable.

[naomi24]

andy-hughes, people should respect our Courts. These women clearly don’t.

[naomi24]

andy-hughes, //Because wearing a Darth Vadar costume is not a proscribed aspect of the Jedi faith //

Wearing a burka is not a proscribed aspect of the Muslim faith.

[Barmaid]

In theory, anyone can turn up to Court wearing anything and very often do. There is no rule that says that you cant go to court dressed as a comedy character. Believe you me, I have seen some sights in Court!

I support the right of anyone to turn up to Court wearing what they wish. However, I also support the right of the Judge to require such clothing to be removed or changed if the interests of justice so require it.

In this case, the interests of justice were that the defendants be identified - nothing more. The one who refused to lift her veil should have been dealt with accordingly.

When it comes to a trial though, if they are intending to give evidence, I agree that they should do so with their faces uncovered so that the jury may make a full and proper assessment.

[andy-hughes]

Naomi - //andy-hughes, people should respect our Courts. These women clearly don’t. //

You have no evidence for that based on the fact that they appeared in court dressed as they would dress on any other day in their lives.

[andy-hughes]

Naomi - //andy-hughes, //Because wearing a Darth Vadar costume is not a proscribed aspect of the Jedi faith //

Wearing a burka is not a proscribed aspect of the Muslim faith. //

A fair point.

So let me adjust my position - if someone routinely dresses a certain way because they believe it conforms with their beliefs, then there is no reason why they should abandon that dress in order to attend a court.

[anotheoldgit]

naomi24
Even those these women were allegedly planning to carry out (an 'English Tea Party') a mass stabbing of innocent people, there are still some on here who will continue to support them.

[andy-hughes]

Barmaid - //In theory, anyone can turn up to Court wearing anything and very often do. There is no rule that says that you cant go to court dressed as a comedy character. Believe you me, I have seen some sights in Court!

I support the right of anyone to turn up to Court wearing what they wish. However, I also support the right of the Judge to require such clothing to be removed or changed if the interests of justice so require it.

In this case, the interests of justice were that the defendants be identified - nothing more. The one who refused to lift her veil should have been dealt with accordingly.

When it comes to a trial though, if they are intending to give evidence, I agree that they should do so with their faces uncovered so that the jury may make a full and proper assessment. //

That accurately sums up the situation - making proper allowances for peoples' cultural preferences, while still ensuring that proper legal process is followed.

[andy-hughes]

AOG - //naomi24
Even those these women were allegedly planning to carry out (an 'English Tea Party') a mass stabbing of innocent people, there are still some on here who will continue to support them. //

Let's be clear about what you may see as my 'support' for these women shall we?

Do I support their right to dress in their chosen clothing to attend court? Yes I do - there is nothing illegal in that action.

Do I support them as innocent until proven guilty? Yes I do?

Will I still support them if, after due legal process, they are convicted of the terrorism offences with which they are charged?

No I will not.

Hopefully that clears up any confusion.

[naomi24]

andy-hughes at 11:43 Fri

Yes, it is a fair point. The burka is, in the main, nothing more than a political uniform.

[mushroom25]

Naomi/andy hughes:-

Proscribe.
v.
to forbid or prohibit.

.....is that what you meant?

[Islay]

AOG - please stop telling lies - i have seen no one support these women and their plans for a mass murder.

[jim360]

There's a fundamental difference between supporting someone, and supporting their *rights*. I wish Muslim women didn't wear Burqas, or Niqabs, or whatever other items of clothing it is that serves as a reminder that, historically, they were seen as being best "cut off" from society at large. But as long as it is their free choice then they always have the right to make it. This doesn't change, either, because they have allegedly committed, or conspired to commit, a crime.

In courts of law, perhaps, it's less defensible. Thankfully Barmaid's covered my concerns for me. They still have a right to wear this in court as long as it doesn't interfere with being identified, or in the witness stand. And at that point, if it starts to interfere with justice, I would stop supporting their rights, because they've then been superseded by far more important concerns.

But until then: I don't support them for making this choice; I don't support the choice; I don't support their behaviour in court; and I certainly don't support their alleged intentions to stab people. I do support their right to choose what they wear.

[andy-hughes]

Naomi - //andy-hughes at 11:43 Fri

Yes, it is a fair point. The burka is, in the main, nothing more than a political uniform. //

That is a view - but since neither of us is a Muslim woman who wears one, we can only guess at the reasons why they do wear them.

[naomi24]

mushroom, no sorry, that’s not what I meant. I unthinkingly copied and pasted part of andy-hughes response. I meant prescribed.

andy-hughes, //since neither of us is a Muslim woman who wears one, we can only guess at the reasons why they do wear them.//

No guesses necessary – at least not on my part.

[anotheoldgit]

Islay
Please stop twisting my words, I did not say that some support these women's plans for a mass murder.

But what I did say there are some on here who will support these women, even those these women were allegedly planning to carry out (an 'English Tea Party') a mass stabbing of innocent people.

A very much different allegation.

[Berniecuddles2]

1st up I have no problem with the burka if it's the woman's choice to wear one.
But in court they should not wear one who's to tell who is actually sitting there being judged could be anyone!
I bet if a person man or woman turned up wearing a balaclava in court they'd be made to take it off ...Christ sake they are in a law court not getting on a bus!!

[Togo]

AOG You could have added, "but if the cap fits" you wear it.

[Islay]

But still a lie AOG - Oh dear that's not a nice thought is it!!

[anotheoldgit]

Do those who support the right of these women's rights to wear the burka in a court of law also agree that in other places of high security, ie police stations, Jails and airports etc, they should first be stripped of these garments so as to carry out security checks to confirm that they are not carrying any offensive weapons etc?