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I Thought The Tories Had Been Robbing The Poor To Pay The Rich

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New Judge | 13:22 Wed 27th Apr 2016 | News
36 Answers
But it seems I have been misled:

“Almost half of Britons pay no income tax while the richest are now shouldering the biggest burden on record”

“…the proportion of working-age adults who do not pay income tax has risen from 34.3 per cent to 43.8 per cent, equivalent to 30million people. “

“Over the same period the amount of income tax paid by the richest 1 per cent has risen from 24.4 per cent to 27.5 per cent, meaning that 300,000 people pay more than a quarter of the nation's income tax.”

“…the increased burden on the rich is unlikely to "unwind" in future as the Conservatives have pledged to increase the personal allowance to £12,500.”

And I also wonder how many of that 43% have their wages topped up by so-called "tax credits". (So called because if you pay no tax I don't see how you can received a tax credit, but it's only me being pernickety).


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Gromit seems to be holding the lefy candle here.

Just accept it. The rich are paying for the poor, no matter how you slice it or spin it.
Who on here class themselves as rich ?
There is no such thing as paying no tax. The lower paid may not pay income tax but they make up for it with tax and vat on everything they buy and that more than makes up for the extra tax you say the rich pay. The very rich also have people to help them get back as much of that tax as possible.
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"I assume they would be a lot happier earning 40K instead of "

Not all of them would. In fact those with two or three children and a non-working (or non-existent) partner would be crazy to do so, especially if it meant they would have to work 40 or 50 hours a week in a much more demanding job.

A person with three children and a non-working partner working 25 hours a week on the minimum wage would earn around £8,400 pa. On this they would pay no tax and just £40 NI, leaving ££8,360.

However, they would be entitled to £15,170 in tax credits, making a total net income (for 25 hours work a week) of £23,530 - or a little over £18 per hour. If they earned £40k their net income would be around £30,300. Of course I have not included child benefit (£2,501 which I accept they would get whether working or not) or any Housing Benefit and Council Tax Benefit to which they be entitled (which would certainly decrease if they earned more)

So, do you think they’d prefer to earn £40k for 50 hours work (and take home £30.3k) or work just half that time stacking the shelves in Sainsbury’s for a little less (or maybe not much less at all if HB and CTB are considered)? And all of this under a government with an avowed intention of making sure “it pays to work” and is castigated for such a policy. Little wonder migrants are flocking from all over the place to work here when their hourly pay can be trebled by the taxpayer. My sides are splitting with laughter (or as a taxpayer, maybe not).
Are you quite sure of those figures, NJ? It may be sensitive to a few things, but I did a tax-credit query based on a 30-year-old couple with three kids, one working and one on £8400 from 25 hours a week, with no other benefits (or at least no ones relevant to calculating the Tax Credit level, ie no Income Support, JSA or ESA), and obtained a total (ie including Child Tax Credit) award of £12,051 per year. This still gives the couple with three children an ~£20k effective annual salary, but that leaves them some £10k a year worse off, or 50% as much again, as compared to one of the two in a £40,000-a-year job, and I'm not sure how much, if at all, it invalidates your point, but we may as well try to be accurate about these things.

If they are paying no tax then their gross income is less than ten thou....
is that possible ? Av income in UK is £26k but is probably NOT normally distributed ( sorry technical phrase there but we are in the realms of revenue law )

//I know 5 ex firemen and 2 ex policemen who retired at 55 to 60 so are not paying tax but still of 'working age'.// - erm Eddie pensions are taxed as pensioners well know and this means that the police and fire pension after god knows how many years conts is less than ten thousand which I find very very unlikely.


a teacher came in one day - and said in passing he was on a pension of five grand - and I very nearly fell off my chair in surprise .... Jesus
He was the one that I asked if he lived off grass soup ....

Hi Jim
problem with giving numbers to a math like you is that before you have finished the sentence, they grind out derived data ( from their pretty little heads without calculators, its hardly fair ! ) and say -are you sure about this ?

which reminds me - i hope you are looking after your own pension ?
academics and eggheads in London have SAUL ( daah der daah of the University of London ) and take it from me, its is pretty crap and you should be thinking of an uplift ( private pension or FSAVC )
I have no idea about my pension, or even if I have one (I'd have thought it rather unlikely at the moment). But it's a private affair, really.

* *

In my calculations I've assumed the scenario NJ described (three children aged 5-10), and then picked a £500pcm rented 3-bedroom place at Council Tax band E in Leeds. Regardless of the details, calculating benefit awards is frustratingly complicated, although then again that's because it should take personal circumstances into account.

I reckon if you throw in Housing Benefit, CTC and Child Benefit on total of what I gave, the total benefits award would come somewhere north of £20k total, depending mainly on the HB component of the benefits of course; but then the Council Tax and HB awards amount to money paid to the landlord and local council rather than to the couple exactly; and what else is a three-child couple on £8,400 to do anyway? Get a better job, perhaps, but then since this family is made-up we have no idea how easy that would be for them; cutting benefits to provide an incentive to work might not be successful and just leave the family worse off, which ultimately impacts on the children.
Further to my earlier post, does anyone know how many people are of working age in the UK. From that we can work out how many of them are paying income tax. We can then work out how many of the UK's tax payers are actually non working age. (retired) Looks to me as if there are more retired tax payers than working ones. I have to go out now for an hour or so will pop in later.
Gromit, I assume you repeatedly refer to the conservative chancellor as "Gideon" as some form of insult.

i find it hard to grasp why you should criticise others whom you accuse of throwing random insults wheras you - a site moderator - can get away with it with impunity. hypocrisy? or a perk of your role?
Gideon is his real name. He adopted George as a boy because he didn't like his given name. The are a few on here to refer to him as such in a disparaging way, all of a leftish persuasion.
...for 'to' read 'who'.
.//I have no idea about my pension, or even if I have one (I'd have thought it rather unlikely at the moment). But it's a private affair, really.//
take it from me, it is pretty crap and you should be thinking of an uplift (private pension or FSAVC )

that is why I am telling you to find out ...... you have been warned !
[ problem is when I have done this before people ten years later said, "Did you well I did nothing" ] - and they starved !
Question Author
“Are you quite sure of those figures, NJ?”

No! Apologies, jim (and everyone else) and thanks for pointing it out. I had in fact made one of the children disabled (No deliberate deceit intended. I was messing about to see what difference it made and forget to take it out). The figure I now get (2 x 26 year old parents, one working- £8,400 - one not, 3 children) is £634 CTC plus £234 WTC = £918 every four weeks which equals £11,934. Include the salary and it’s £20,300. Yes a £10k shortfall. But to gain that £10k considerably more effort and application would be required. It is preposterous that the taxpayer is enhancing wages to this degree when the recipients are not working a 40 hour week.
Back in now and have tried to answer my own query. The latest figures I can find suggest that there are 40 million people of working age in the UK. Of those 43.8 pay no tax. That looks like 17.52 million, so 22.48 million people of working age pay some income tax. The site suggests that there are 30 million tax payers and if 22.48 million tax payers are working it must mean that 7.52 million pensioners are paying income tax, ie 25% of the UK income tax revenue is paid by pensioners. We only number 15% of the population. We have a voice, time to use it all you oldies. ( I need no encouragement).
Glad to clear up the misunderstanding, NJ. It's intriguing that a four-year age difference apparently induces a difference of £100 over the course of a year in terms of Tax Credit awards... (possibly also related to the age of the children). But anyway.

// It is preposterous that the taxpayer is enhancing wages to this degree when the recipients are not working a 40 hour week. //

I agree, although it depends on how you go about recovering this shortfall. The massive hikes planned in the minimum wage/ minimum tax payment threshold go some way towards redressing the balance, assuming that this doesn't also lead to rises in inflation that make the pay increase effectively disappear. On a different note I'm also slightly puzzled why someone would get Tax Credits when they aren't paying any (income) tax in the first place...

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