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Why Do The Stay In Campaign Have Nothing Good To Say About The Eu?
113 Answers
On Andrew Marr this morning Nigel Lawson said "There is no campaign to love the EU only to try and scare the pants of those who may vote to leave" - I think he was bang on, so is there any reason to stay in reality?
Answers
“Why Do The Stay In Campaign Have Nothing Good To Say About The Eu?” Simples! Because there is nothing good to say about the EU. It is an anti-
13:28 Sun 10th Apr 2016
I think people have made it sound like the only thing that matters to me is science. This is not, in fact, the case -- let me again stress that I was merely trying to offer one particular good thing to say about the EU. I'm sure I could find others, although the response in this thread makes me far from inclined to bother trying. Either I'm accused of being blinkered, or young (hardly my fault, but why should relatively young people be excluded from having an opinion, offering it, and being given at least some respect for doing so?); or of "wanting the dead to be *** on" (what? really?! Anyone else on the brexit side care to justify that one?). Or, in the case of NJ, engaging but politely disagreeing, and I don't have a problem with that.
If you want your answer to the original question, you can look no further than the less-than-respectful responses in this thread given to anyone who dares to try.
If you want your answer to the original question, you can look no further than the less-than-respectful responses in this thread given to anyone who dares to try.
I haven't given any 'less-than-respectful' answers, Jim. It is not your fault that you are young, I agree. I think it is that we feel that we have a mountain to climb against ignorance - and you do come over as thinking that the new God, Science, is the be-all and end-all.
Shall we try to agree that older people to have more experience and wisdom - although younger, technical and scientific types have more knowledge?
Please listen to the sane voices of the elders in society, who have a good overview. :)
Shall we try to agree that older people to have more experience and wisdom - although younger, technical and scientific types have more knowledge?
Please listen to the sane voices of the elders in society, who have a good overview. :)
NJ: "As I have explained before, in more than 80% of instances where the UK has opposed proposals made by the EU, those proposals have been passed nonetheless."
Care to provide a citation for that one? I ask because I've seen different statistics that would imply almost the exact opposite is the case, ie that the UK's and EU's policy interests or policy decisions align in an overwhelming majority of cases, see eg this one: http://
But anyway, I'm not sure I'm missing the point in fact, or rather it's now where a philosophical disagreement changes the interpretation. If you prefer decisions to be made as locally as possible, then for sure any EU-biased policy is undesirable. If, on the other hand, as I do, you'd rather see greater globalisation and integration on more and more policy issues, then the case for leaving the EU is already on somewhat shaky ground before you've even started. I'm not sure that difference is ever going to be reconciled.
Care to provide a citation for that one? I ask because I've seen different statistics that would imply almost the exact opposite is the case, ie that the UK's and EU's policy interests or policy decisions align in an overwhelming majority of cases, see eg this one: http://
But anyway, I'm not sure I'm missing the point in fact, or rather it's now where a philosophical disagreement changes the interpretation. If you prefer decisions to be made as locally as possible, then for sure any EU-biased policy is undesirable. If, on the other hand, as I do, you'd rather see greater globalisation and integration on more and more policy issues, then the case for leaving the EU is already on somewhat shaky ground before you've even started. I'm not sure that difference is ever going to be reconciled.
jourdain, I was directing that mainly at TWR and balders (although, as it happens, I'm an "especially narrow-focused" physicist... but never mind). It's something that matters to me, and I don't think it's unreasonable to discuss the impact on science -- although, as I've already acknowledged about five times in this thread, I don't expect anyone to change their decision based on it, so I was already aware that it wasn't going to be persuasive. Unfortunately, that point appears to have been overlooked in favour of labelling me as narrow-minded.
And Naomi, I've not been given much respect anyway by some (not all) on this thread, so you'll forgive me if I point out the nastier stuff that's been thrown my way. I would have thought it was in your interests to reject that, if you are wanting this place to be "conducive to debate".
I've tried to tackle the respectful counterarguments at the same time.
And Naomi, I've not been given much respect anyway by some (not all) on this thread, so you'll forgive me if I point out the nastier stuff that's been thrown my way. I would have thought it was in your interests to reject that, if you are wanting this place to be "conducive to debate".
I've tried to tackle the respectful counterarguments at the same time.
Jim, I've seen too many good questions, threads, and posts go awry when people have started banging on about 'respect' and 'offence'. That's a recent innovation that is often used by the mindless to silence the opposition - but it's unproductive. Far better to rise above it and continue the discussion.
Jim, my comment was
///Sadly far too young, and blinkered,///
You say at 17:43
///obviously I'm too young to have known a non-EU UK///
and later you say
you are 'narrow focused' which sounds a lot like blinkered imo.
So, so far we're not really disagreeing on that much.
But then you comment
///I was directing that mainly at TWR and balders///
Pleeeease don't put us in the same bracket, Good Grief man, we don't even have a common language!
///Sadly far too young, and blinkered,///
You say at 17:43
///obviously I'm too young to have known a non-EU UK///
and later you say
you are 'narrow focused' which sounds a lot like blinkered imo.
So, so far we're not really disagreeing on that much.
But then you comment
///I was directing that mainly at TWR and balders///
Pleeeease don't put us in the same bracket, Good Grief man, we don't even have a common language!
A long post, but a good one, cribbed from elsewhere;
'If I wanted Britain to fail …To follow, not lead; to decline, not prosper; to despair, not dream. I would start with sovereignty. First I’d cede all law making to the unelected EU bureaucrats in Brussels. In return for this I would pay £55 million a day for the privilege, cover more than my fair share of any budgetary over-runs without question and without audit. I’d police myself ruthlessly to ensure that I comply with all EU laws and pay vast fines if I break rules whilst other members continue to flaunt the rules with impunity. I’d give up any remaining judicial authority that I have and look to the European Court of Justice to arbitrate in all our affairs. I’d show the world how selfless I am by keeping our borders open to the vast Muslim hordes who have accepted Frau Merkel’s open invitation to come and live in Europe.
If I wanted Britain to fail … I’d ban any mention of Christianity in our schools, I’d segregate classes into boys and girls and allow the wearing of hijabs or burkas. I would also ban crucifixes so that no offence would be given to our burgeoning Muslim population. I’d ensure young children are taught about the benefits of diverse sexual orientation and encourage them to explore and experiment with their sexuality. I would focus science education on AGW and ensure that they were aware that we never had named storms before 2015 and worse weather would come unless they changed their lifestyles. I’d ensure that more and more children take out large loans to take University courses in subjects that add no value but provides an opportunity to extensively expose them to the thinking of the liberal intellectuals who have pervaded all our institutions.'
tbc....
'If I wanted Britain to fail …To follow, not lead; to decline, not prosper; to despair, not dream. I would start with sovereignty. First I’d cede all law making to the unelected EU bureaucrats in Brussels. In return for this I would pay £55 million a day for the privilege, cover more than my fair share of any budgetary over-runs without question and without audit. I’d police myself ruthlessly to ensure that I comply with all EU laws and pay vast fines if I break rules whilst other members continue to flaunt the rules with impunity. I’d give up any remaining judicial authority that I have and look to the European Court of Justice to arbitrate in all our affairs. I’d show the world how selfless I am by keeping our borders open to the vast Muslim hordes who have accepted Frau Merkel’s open invitation to come and live in Europe.
If I wanted Britain to fail … I’d ban any mention of Christianity in our schools, I’d segregate classes into boys and girls and allow the wearing of hijabs or burkas. I would also ban crucifixes so that no offence would be given to our burgeoning Muslim population. I’d ensure young children are taught about the benefits of diverse sexual orientation and encourage them to explore and experiment with their sexuality. I would focus science education on AGW and ensure that they were aware that we never had named storms before 2015 and worse weather would come unless they changed their lifestyles. I’d ensure that more and more children take out large loans to take University courses in subjects that add no value but provides an opportunity to extensively expose them to the thinking of the liberal intellectuals who have pervaded all our institutions.'
tbc....
'If I wanted Britain to fail … I would encourage the EU to create countless new regulations and make the old ones more draconian. They would be so complicated that only bureaucrats, lawyers and lobbyists could understand them. That way small businesses with big ideas wouldn’t stand a chance – I’d give generous tax breaks to Google, Apple, Facebook, Goldman Sachs and others to ensure they help spread the right message, restrict the bloggosphere and reward the favoured elites. I’d force manufacturers to shut down production of successful British brands such as the Landrover Discovery and high performance Dyson vacuum cleaners for failing to meet EU safety and environmental regulations. Meanwhile I’ll allow German manufacturers like VW and Bosch to mislead the British public with exaggerated claims for their products without penalty.
If I wanted Britain to fail … I’d be the only country in Europe to enshrine impossible CO2 reduction targets in law. I’d take more than my share of the greenhouse emissions reduction targets and give others countries a free ride because of it. I’d make everyone feel guilty for using the energy that heats their homes, fuels their cars, runs their businesses, and powers the economy. I’d make cheap energy like gas and coal expensive, so that expensive energy like wind and solar would seem cheap. I would all-but-outlaw Britain’s most abundant sources of energy. I’d shut down our existing nuclear and coal and make shale gas so difficult and costly it wouldn’t be worth doing. I’d turn a blind eye to Germany building new coal fired electricity generating stations. I would transform the environmental agenda from a document of conservation to an economic suicide pact. I would concede entire industries like steel and aluminium to our global economic rivals by imposing regulations that cost billions. I would celebrate those who preach environmental austerity in public while indulging a lavish lifestyle in private'
If I wanted Britain to fail … I’d be the only country in Europe to enshrine impossible CO2 reduction targets in law. I’d take more than my share of the greenhouse emissions reduction targets and give others countries a free ride because of it. I’d make everyone feel guilty for using the energy that heats their homes, fuels their cars, runs their businesses, and powers the economy. I’d make cheap energy like gas and coal expensive, so that expensive energy like wind and solar would seem cheap. I would all-but-outlaw Britain’s most abundant sources of energy. I’d shut down our existing nuclear and coal and make shale gas so difficult and costly it wouldn’t be worth doing. I’d turn a blind eye to Germany building new coal fired electricity generating stations. I would transform the environmental agenda from a document of conservation to an economic suicide pact. I would concede entire industries like steel and aluminium to our global economic rivals by imposing regulations that cost billions. I would celebrate those who preach environmental austerity in public while indulging a lavish lifestyle in private'
'If I wanted Britain to fail … For every concern, I’d invent a crisis; and for every crisis, I’d invent a bogeyman. I’d encourage the EU to expand into the Russian sphere of influence. I’d run down our own defences but support the creation of a European Army to stare down Putin. I’d bomb the allies of Assad even though they are the only ones fighting IS on the ground. I’d try and get Turkey into the EU so that we might have more workers willing to accept very low pay to come to the UK to prop up the Ponzi scheme that is our economy for a little longer. I’d bestow £11 billion a year in foreign aid ensuring it goes on reducing carbon footprints and into the hands of the local elites – I’d seek to bring about regime change where strong leaders do not share my world view on human rights.
If I wanted Britain to fail … I’d make it almost impossible for farmers to farm, fishermen to fish, miners to mine, builders to build and driller to drill. And because I don’t believe in free markets, I’d invent false ones. I’d devise fictitious products—like carbon credits—and trade them on imaginary markets. I’d raise prices and disguise this as a subsidy to prop up uneconomic green industries. I’d convince people that this would create jobs and be good for the economy. I’d make it easier to stop industry than start it – easier to kill jobs than create them I’d make it impossible to fire the lazy or incompetent. I’d completely open our borders and incentivise economic migrants with the promise of generous benefits and free health care paid for by ever increasing taxes levied on the few. I’d ensure that I could buy the votes by making beneficiaries of the handouts and plethora of public sector jobs greater in number than those actually creating real value. I’d put my like thinking cronies in highly paid executive positions of publicly funded charities and NGO’s. I’d encourage them to lobby the government to do my bidding.
If I wanted Britain to fail … I would prey on the goodness and decency of the ordinary people. I would only need the BBC, the MSM, schools and the civil service to convince them that leaving the EU would be to enter a dystopian world where there would be no jobs, no security, migrant camps, no future – a Britain unable to determinbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbe its destiny or be successful in a terrifying world of uncertainty and change.
If I wanted Britain to fail ... I suppose I wouldn’t change a thing. I'd vote REMAIN as Cameron and the EU are doing an excellent job'
If I wanted Britain to fail … I’d make it almost impossible for farmers to farm, fishermen to fish, miners to mine, builders to build and driller to drill. And because I don’t believe in free markets, I’d invent false ones. I’d devise fictitious products—like carbon credits—and trade them on imaginary markets. I’d raise prices and disguise this as a subsidy to prop up uneconomic green industries. I’d convince people that this would create jobs and be good for the economy. I’d make it easier to stop industry than start it – easier to kill jobs than create them I’d make it impossible to fire the lazy or incompetent. I’d completely open our borders and incentivise economic migrants with the promise of generous benefits and free health care paid for by ever increasing taxes levied on the few. I’d ensure that I could buy the votes by making beneficiaries of the handouts and plethora of public sector jobs greater in number than those actually creating real value. I’d put my like thinking cronies in highly paid executive positions of publicly funded charities and NGO’s. I’d encourage them to lobby the government to do my bidding.
If I wanted Britain to fail … I would prey on the goodness and decency of the ordinary people. I would only need the BBC, the MSM, schools and the civil service to convince them that leaving the EU would be to enter a dystopian world where there would be no jobs, no security, migrant camps, no future – a Britain unable to determinbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbe its destiny or be successful in a terrifying world of uncertainty and change.
If I wanted Britain to fail ... I suppose I wouldn’t change a thing. I'd vote REMAIN as Cameron and the EU are doing an excellent job'
Svejk. Thank you for taking the time and trouble to post your detailed response to our possible future if we stayed in the EU. I dread to think that fear and or apathy will cast away our independence. Out, seems so obvious to me, but, sheeple ignorance and moral cowardice have altered our history before.
I would love for the people to shoutout a resounding OUT.
I would love for the people to shoutout a resounding OUT.
Interesting discussion everyone and thanks for keeping it mainly civil. For my own part I am just sick to death of the EU leviathan and crave self determination. I want to control our borders, I'm sick of sending useless popinjays to the EU gravy train. I don't want an MEP or a failed politician representing us as a commissioner. I'm sick of the rest of the EU court finding against us. I want to get our fishing waters back and stop funding inefficient French farmers, I want to decide where we buy bananas and how bent they should be. I want to get out before we absorb any more basket cases and spend gazillions on their infrastructure. Yes It is a leap of faith to some extent but many of us do remember life before the reich and as yet no one seems to be able to nail down a benefit of staying that is not available by leaving. OUT!
With you 100% on the out vote TTT. Just a thought for the waverers out there. If some years ago you had entered into a "marriage", "civil partnership", or even just decided that it was convenient to join forces for economic and social reasons. Then a few years down the line, you became aware that your "partner" had become controlling, or abusive, or bullying, or was stealing from you, or imposing conditions on you concerning who you could and could not deal with, would you choose to stay in the partnership or walk away and regain your self respect and independence?
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