ChatterBank1 min ago
Social Media Backlash Against Russia
I notice there are a lot of 'boycott the Winter Olympics' and protest posts against the Russian attitude towards the LGBT community; and quite rightly so.
Also we have seen a lot on the TV and in the press covering this topic ahead of the winter Olympics.
I wonder if this will be repeated for the World Cup in Qatar in 4 years time to protest against the Islamic communities attitudes to homosexuality - or maybe even closer to home?
Are people afraid to criticize Islamic attitudes for fear of being branded racist?
Also we have seen a lot on the TV and in the press covering this topic ahead of the winter Olympics.
I wonder if this will be repeated for the World Cup in Qatar in 4 years time to protest against the Islamic communities attitudes to homosexuality - or maybe even closer to home?
Are people afraid to criticize Islamic attitudes for fear of being branded racist?
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Kromo: //In the case of Russia, the law acts as a greenlight to violent gangs who know the govt don't care,//
So you have watched a programme on Channel 4! Everywhere, gangs of hooligans attack every kind of person for all sorts of reasons; Race, creed, colour, to rob them, or just for the hell of it, will C4 be travelling the world for more reports?
Homosexuality is NOT outlawed in Russia, there are at least two large brightly lit, clearly evident, 'Gay' bars in Moscow alone.
It may be true that not all homosexuals are paedophiles, but you cannot claim that there is no historic connection to a predilection among many males, for young boys, - or would you want to deny that fact?
If we had given more protection to children in the past, we wouldn't be seeing the string of elderly offenders being locked away now.
So you have watched a programme on Channel 4! Everywhere, gangs of hooligans attack every kind of person for all sorts of reasons; Race, creed, colour, to rob them, or just for the hell of it, will C4 be travelling the world for more reports?
Homosexuality is NOT outlawed in Russia, there are at least two large brightly lit, clearly evident, 'Gay' bars in Moscow alone.
It may be true that not all homosexuals are paedophiles, but you cannot claim that there is no historic connection to a predilection among many males, for young boys, - or would you want to deny that fact?
If we had given more protection to children in the past, we wouldn't be seeing the string of elderly offenders being locked away now.
AOG
So in your opinion, should critics of the new law in Russia stay silent?
From the BBC
//The legislation passed in June amended Russia's child protection law with a clause covering "the propagandising of non-traditional sexual relations among minors". This prescribes fines for providing information about homosexuality to people under 18. These range from 4,000 roubles (£78; $121) for an individual to 1m roubles for organisations.
Critics say the amendment's loose wording, and its free interpretation by the authorities, effectively make any kind of public gay rights event in Russia impossible. Not that this would affect the situation in the capital, Moscow, where "gay pride" events have effectively been banned for 100 years by court order.//
Did you watch 'Hunted' on Channel 4 earlier this week? It's available on 4oD, and it might make you think again as to whether vocal opposition to these new laws are something we should shut up about.
So in your opinion, should critics of the new law in Russia stay silent?
From the BBC
//The legislation passed in June amended Russia's child protection law with a clause covering "the propagandising of non-traditional sexual relations among minors". This prescribes fines for providing information about homosexuality to people under 18. These range from 4,000 roubles (£78; $121) for an individual to 1m roubles for organisations.
Critics say the amendment's loose wording, and its free interpretation by the authorities, effectively make any kind of public gay rights event in Russia impossible. Not that this would affect the situation in the capital, Moscow, where "gay pride" events have effectively been banned for 100 years by court order.//
Did you watch 'Hunted' on Channel 4 earlier this week? It's available on 4oD, and it might make you think again as to whether vocal opposition to these new laws are something we should shut up about.
Khandro,
"Everywhere, gangs of hooligans attack every kind of person for all sorts of reasons; Race, creed, colour, to rob them, or just for the hell of it"
I believe the difference is that the Russian authorities are openly linking paedophilia with homosexuality.
Therein lies the problem. Think of how many news stories you've read about adult heterosexual males targeting young teenage girls. If you're going to link paedophi law with gay men, then surely it's stands to reason that straight men are equally culpable?
And here's another problem - without most gay people, like most straight people, understand where their sexual preferences lie when they're in their teenage years. This new law will have nothing but a negative affect on those teens because they will now be effectively isolated, with no access to groups who can be of assistance during those difficult times.
Lastly, yes - people get beaten up and robbed for a whole host of reasons, but rarely are they humiliated by being filmed and have those clips uploaded to YouTube.
"Everywhere, gangs of hooligans attack every kind of person for all sorts of reasons; Race, creed, colour, to rob them, or just for the hell of it"
I believe the difference is that the Russian authorities are openly linking paedophilia with homosexuality.
Therein lies the problem. Think of how many news stories you've read about adult heterosexual males targeting young teenage girls. If you're going to link paedophi law with gay men, then surely it's stands to reason that straight men are equally culpable?
And here's another problem - without most gay people, like most straight people, understand where their sexual preferences lie when they're in their teenage years. This new law will have nothing but a negative affect on those teens because they will now be effectively isolated, with no access to groups who can be of assistance during those difficult times.
Lastly, yes - people get beaten up and robbed for a whole host of reasons, but rarely are they humiliated by being filmed and have those clips uploaded to YouTube.
Possibly teaching our young children in school that homosexual marriage and relationships are normal, being called a bigot because you deem to disagree, and having it rammed down our throats that we have to accept it(by law). I suppose having to divorce from a civil partnership in order to wed will be the next item on the agenda to be abolished - albeit hetrosexuals have to go through this process.
"So you have watched a programme on Channel 4! "
I also speak Russian(ish...), keep up to date on the news using Russian sources, and attend regular seminars on modern Russia.
"there are at least two large brightly lit, clearly evident, 'Gay' bars in Moscow alone"
Gay venues everywhere in Russia are subject to regular attacks - just last year, one of the two clubs you mention in Moscow was subject both to gunfire and a gas attack. In one month. And guess what? The government did sweet FA. Why? Because they don't care.
So, yeah, homosexuality is legal by the letter of the law. But if you're terrorised, humiliated or harmed (against the Russian constitution, incidentally), then the police won't do anything about it, so you're basically on your own.
I also speak Russian(ish...), keep up to date on the news using Russian sources, and attend regular seminars on modern Russia.
"there are at least two large brightly lit, clearly evident, 'Gay' bars in Moscow alone"
Gay venues everywhere in Russia are subject to regular attacks - just last year, one of the two clubs you mention in Moscow was subject both to gunfire and a gas attack. In one month. And guess what? The government did sweet FA. Why? Because they don't care.
So, yeah, homosexuality is legal by the letter of the law. But if you're terrorised, humiliated or harmed (against the Russian constitution, incidentally), then the police won't do anything about it, so you're basically on your own.
"It may be true that not all homosexuals are paedophiles, but you cannot claim that there is no historic connection to a predilection among many males, for young boys, - or would you want to deny that fact?"
Sorry, I don't want you to think I'm avoiding this, but I really don't understand what your point is. What exactly are you asking me here?
Sorry, I don't want you to think I'm avoiding this, but I really don't understand what your point is. What exactly are you asking me here?
"Possibly teaching our young children in school that homosexual marriage and relationships are normal"
Define "normal." It's certainly not what you'd expect the majority of people to go for - so if, for example, we had 75% of adults identify as homosexual, this would clearly be quite unusual because it's contrary to experience. If c.2-5% of adults identify as homosexual (and yes I know I've gotten the percentages wrong before), that's not particularly unusual - it's about the same number that, as far as we can tell, there always has been.
In an average school, we can assume that a small proportion of the students are going to be gay - either while they're at school, or when they grow older. Because that's what usually happens. They need sex education, and relationship education, just as much as anyone else does. And they also have a right to exist without people looking down their nose them just because there's less of them.
Define "normal." It's certainly not what you'd expect the majority of people to go for - so if, for example, we had 75% of adults identify as homosexual, this would clearly be quite unusual because it's contrary to experience. If c.2-5% of adults identify as homosexual (and yes I know I've gotten the percentages wrong before), that's not particularly unusual - it's about the same number that, as far as we can tell, there always has been.
In an average school, we can assume that a small proportion of the students are going to be gay - either while they're at school, or when they grow older. Because that's what usually happens. They need sex education, and relationship education, just as much as anyone else does. And they also have a right to exist without people looking down their nose them just because there's less of them.
AOG,has it occurred to you that homosexuals are being attacked or killed simply because they are homosexual, but Afghanis were not being killed simply because they were Afghanis? Iraqis were being killled because of the actions of their government but not simply because they were Iraqi. So there is a difference.
But whatever the reason for any protest, whether good or bad, it is significant that Muslim nations or competitors do not appear to have boycotted any games en masse.
But whatever the reason for any protest, whether good or bad, it is significant that Muslim nations or competitors do not appear to have boycotted any games en masse.
I would be interested in hearing exactly what it is that Khandro thinks "the homosexual lobby" are lobbying for on "the left wing C4".
And you might be right that gangs will abuse and target people for a whole host of reasons, but that should not be a reason for tolerating yet another reason for them to do it, and especially over their sexual orientation, which, rather like the colour of your skin, one can do nothing about.
As to homosexuals being linked to paedophiles - in what way, Khandro? Given the sheer number of child grooming instances that go on, how is their prediliction for "young boys" any different to the sheer number of heterosexual males who seem obsessively interested in young girls?
In this country at least we hold to the notion that all should be treated equally, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, ethnic background, or religious preference. When we are involved in an international sporting event being held in a country with a dubious human rights record and a rather intolerant views of homosexuals, it is perfectly right and proper for people to comment and criticize. After all, Putin and Russia are attempting to bask in the reflected glory of hosting the most expensive winter olympics ever. If they can use it for political gain, then that leaves them wide open to criticism of their actual policies.
And you might be right that gangs will abuse and target people for a whole host of reasons, but that should not be a reason for tolerating yet another reason for them to do it, and especially over their sexual orientation, which, rather like the colour of your skin, one can do nothing about.
As to homosexuals being linked to paedophiles - in what way, Khandro? Given the sheer number of child grooming instances that go on, how is their prediliction for "young boys" any different to the sheer number of heterosexual males who seem obsessively interested in young girls?
In this country at least we hold to the notion that all should be treated equally, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, ethnic background, or religious preference. When we are involved in an international sporting event being held in a country with a dubious human rights record and a rather intolerant views of homosexuals, it is perfectly right and proper for people to comment and criticize. After all, Putin and Russia are attempting to bask in the reflected glory of hosting the most expensive winter olympics ever. If they can use it for political gain, then that leaves them wide open to criticism of their actual policies.
Breden
I'm going to answer your points one by one...because you've raised some interesting ideas, which, when you think of it...don't really make a lick of sense.
"Possibly teaching our young children in school that homosexual marriage and relationships are normal"
What's the problem with that? Even if it were true (and I don't know where in the curriculum that would sit), what's the downside of bringing up kids to respect gay people and their relationships? What possible downside is there?
"being called a bigot because you deem to disagree"
Sometimes that label is applicable, where someone has hostility to a group of people for no reason but their sexuality.
"and having it rammed down our throats that we have to accept it(by law)."
Accept what? The equal treatment of LGBT people?
And whose ramming what down your throat? If you're talking about the presence that gay people have in the media, well - that's the way the cookie crumbles I'm afraid. Gay people have always been visible in the arts, and now that we have a brand new entertainment media (the Internet), I don't see it decreasing any time soon.
"I suppose having to divorce from a civil partnership in order to wed will be the next item on the agenda to be abolished - albeit hetrosexuals have to go through this process."
No, I think you can be fairly sure that CPs will have to be officially dissolved before a new CP, or marriage can take place.
It seems that you think that straight people are hard done by. Am I reading that right?
I'm going to answer your points one by one...because you've raised some interesting ideas, which, when you think of it...don't really make a lick of sense.
"Possibly teaching our young children in school that homosexual marriage and relationships are normal"
What's the problem with that? Even if it were true (and I don't know where in the curriculum that would sit), what's the downside of bringing up kids to respect gay people and their relationships? What possible downside is there?
"being called a bigot because you deem to disagree"
Sometimes that label is applicable, where someone has hostility to a group of people for no reason but their sexuality.
"and having it rammed down our throats that we have to accept it(by law)."
Accept what? The equal treatment of LGBT people?
And whose ramming what down your throat? If you're talking about the presence that gay people have in the media, well - that's the way the cookie crumbles I'm afraid. Gay people have always been visible in the arts, and now that we have a brand new entertainment media (the Internet), I don't see it decreasing any time soon.
"I suppose having to divorce from a civil partnership in order to wed will be the next item on the agenda to be abolished - albeit hetrosexuals have to go through this process."
No, I think you can be fairly sure that CPs will have to be officially dissolved before a new CP, or marriage can take place.
It seems that you think that straight people are hard done by. Am I reading that right?
Along with the rest of the nation, I have watched this week grown men in their 50's and 60's weeping at what was done to them when they were vulnerable children; away from home, and in the 'care' of that pathetic old sod who has just been locked up, - and may he there rot.
Please don't talk about parallels between heterosexual DJ,s fondling willing teenage girls as there is no comparison.
Please don't talk about parallels between heterosexual DJ,s fondling willing teenage girls as there is no comparison.
-- answer removed --
@Khandro "Along with the rest of the nation, I have watched this week grown men in their 50's and 60's weeping at what was done to them when they were vulnerable children; away from home, and in the 'care' of that pathetic old sod who has just been locked up, - and may he there rot.
Please don't talk about parallels between heterosexual DJ,s fondling willing teenage girls as there is no comparison"
You do spout some garbage. You use a false equivalence ("grown men weeping at was done to them" versus a willing teenage girl being groped by a heterosexual DJ) to justify this crap you talk about homosexuals and paedophilia being linked. Never mind all the terrified young girls groomed and raped eh? What equivalence will you be using next in an attempt to rationalise what seems to be your bigotry?
Please don't talk about parallels between heterosexual DJ,s fondling willing teenage girls as there is no comparison"
You do spout some garbage. You use a false equivalence ("grown men weeping at was done to them" versus a willing teenage girl being groped by a heterosexual DJ) to justify this crap you talk about homosexuals and paedophilia being linked. Never mind all the terrified young girls groomed and raped eh? What equivalence will you be using next in an attempt to rationalise what seems to be your bigotry?
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