Does A Raised Arm Salute, Always Mean A Nazi Salute?

[anotheoldgit]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2477639/SHAMEFUL-Fury-UK-soldiers-investigated-performing-Nazi-style-salute-Helmand.html

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/About/General/2012/3/28/1332936684595/OLYMPICS-BLACK-POWER-SALU-008.jpg

It would seem that this logo has also come up for some criticism.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2477930/Manchester-United-issue-apology-using-swastika-style-logo-club-newsletter.html

[jno]

fair enough, Steve, the text says "The umpire's signal is one arm stretched above the body" but the illustration shows the arm bent at the elbow, which is closer to what I've generally observed.

aog, if that's Breivik, then I was right. He is probably saying "Right on, my white homies!"

[FredPuli43]

That was educational. Now we now what arm gesture we should make before displaying our anti-Muslim paranoia on AB.

[sp1814]

AOG

I don't know what point you're trying to make any more.

The picture you included (of the athletes in the '68 Olympics) were making the black power salute.

Are you now saying they weren't or that Andres Breivik sympathises with those who fought for civil rights in the US in the 60s?

Or are you trying to win an argument by any means necessary?

Because if it's the latter - bravo, but it's a bit of a Phyrric victory as I literally have no idea what you're going on about, therefore, you started this at an advantage.

[youngmafbog]

AOG, no it doesn't, but of course some will try to see it anywhere they can.

[Kromovaracun]

One of the ugliest legacies of fascism, unfortunately, is that they effectively "stole" perfectly innocent symbols (the straight-armed "Roman" salute, the swastika) and effectively drenched them in blood.

Unfortunately, in modern European culture it is no longer possible to make a straight-armed salute without immediately invoking the Nazis. That's a part of the cultural violence they inflicted, but nothing can really be done about it, at least for a generation or two...

so yeah, I agree with Ludwig. Anyone displaying the raised-arm "Roman" salute in this day and age is a tw4t.

[davetuc]

Interesting to see Man Utd's New Order headline underneath a symbol 'resembling' a swastika. The New World Order uses the swastika. Spooky!

[anotheoldgit]

sp1814

Yes I know you don't like it when I show embarrassing comparisons, but please don't embarrass your own intelligence by admitted you do not know what the point is that I am making.

You know very well, but you just do not want to admit the sheer imbalances that often occur with great frequencies, that is of course against majority groups.

[ludwig]

I don't know what point you're trying to make either. Are you saying the soldiers are black power supporters or that the black athletes were nazis, or that none of them are anything other than people who can't wave without bending their elbows?

Are you saying the black power salute isn't criticised but the Nazi salute is? If so you're wrong. The olypic salute incident was highly criticised at the time.

You should probably clarify what you're saying.

[LazyGun]

Breivik looks like he is doing a straight arm salute to me - got a fist on the end of it, sure, but it has the Nazi overtone, as do the soldiers salute in Helmand. Never heard that such a salute was linked to Ulster Unionists before, but it is very difficult to imagine anyone, not least soldiers, not being aware that a straight arm salute like that is going to have fascist overtones.

And the black power salute was always clenched fist and arm raised vertical, wasn't it?

What do you think, AoG? Do you think it wrong to criticize the soldiers for such a gesture?

And didn't we have a similar topic a few months ago regarding a greek (?) football player "saluting" the crowd with a nazi salute?

[anotheoldgit]

LazyGun

No the whole point that I am making is, "does it really matter" the logo?? the soldiers arm stretched out salute ?? The Black Power clenched fist salute ??

Does anyone really think that the logo was meant to be a swastika, or that those two soldiers actually have Nazi sympathies, apart from the clenched fist black power salute which may have superiority under tones, but still all harmless.

[LazyGun]

@AoG

Oh, I see.I would agree that the MUFC logo thing was an over-reaction. But the soldiers making such a salute? Yes, I think that does matter - as did the Black Power salutes that the athletes made, back at the Olympics. And Breiviks salute also matters,although thankfully he is now behind bars.

Symbols like this are important. I am astonished that soldiers could possibly offer up that salute in ignorance of the common cultural reference - the Nazi salute. So they knew what they were doing, and that does not say much in favour of them.

[andy-hughes]

A raised arm does not always mean a Nazi salute, but as advised previously, there is an issue of interperetation to be considered.

In order for their not to be any confusion, common sense dictates that solders do not make salutes in front of flags which are the photographed and spread around the world.

Saves problems further down the line.

[woofgang]

what Andy said....

[Kromovaracun]

"Does anyone really think that the logo was meant to be a swastika, or that those two soldiers actually have Nazi sympathies, apart from the clenched fist black power salute which may have superiority under tones, but still all harmless."

Personally, I don't think the logo is meant to look like a swastika. It's entirely possible that the soldiers have nazi sympathies.

[sp1814]

AOG

You wrote:

"Yes I know you don't like it when I show embarrassing comparisons, but please don't embarrass your own intelligence by admitted you do not know what the point is that I am making."

Are you actually trying to somehow compare the black power salute! a potent symbol of the civil rights movement in 60s America, with theNaxi salu...

...no, I have to ask...are you okay today? Because that's so far off the deep end, that you're in danger of drowning in hyperbole.

Please tell me that this is all tongue in cheek.

Really...

[sp1814]

Re: Manchester Utd...no, I don't think they would consciously attempt to design an emblem to resemble a swastika.

I mean - for what purpose?

I think it's just a weird design snafu that many wouldn't even clock if not told.

[bednobs]

i wonder what you would make of the 3 fingered Brownie salute i used to practice in the 80s?

[sp1814]

AOG

You wrote:

"apart from the clenched fist black power salute which may have superiority under tones".

I think you may be projecting - a raised fist to me suggests defiance, in the face of persecution.

I don't know where you get 'superiority under tones' from that.

Are you well read up on the civil rights movement...out of curiosity?

[sandyRoe]

In the 1970s Bill Craig formed the Vanguard party in NI. At their rallies supporters would make this salute while answering a rhetorical question from the stage with, 'We do'. The whole thing had more than a little of the stench of Naziism about it.
The soldiers in the photograph are from an Ulster regiment. Old habits die hard.

[Peter Pedant]

Yes it does -
like putting up two fingers and then saying you had no idea it meant " s+d off ".

and when Harry wore the Indian good luck symbol that everyone else said was a swastika - yes he had to carry the can.