Does Anyone Oppose This Bill?

[anotheoldgit]

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/09/tory-mps-ban-burqa-bill-reaches-parliament

/// The bill states that "a person wearing a garment or other object intended by the wearer as its primary purpose to obscure the face in a public place shall be guilty of an offence." It adds that "where members of the public are licensed to access private premises for the purposes of the giving or receiving of goods or services, it shall not be an offence for the owner...to request that a person wearing a garment or other object intended to obscure the face remove such garment or object; or to require that a person refusing a request...leave the premises." ///

I look forward to the debate both on here and also in Parliament.

[sp1814]

emmie

You misinterpreted what I meant.

I have tried to clarify it for you, but I have been unsuccessful, so lets move on.

[sp1814]

Well said andy-hughes (as usual).

[andy-hughes]

Thanks sp!

[emmie]

so would have no problem if this was the norm for all women, as it is in some Islamic societies. It isn't in the UK currently but who knows what will happen in the future. I don't understand this attitude of i don't care, nothing to do with me, if your wife was told to cover her face because of some perceived religious, cultural attitude it wouldn't bother you one iota? and i am not talking of being in Afghanistan, Pakistan but in Britain. The country that has supposedly moved forward in it's thinking on women's right, gay rights and much else besides.

[McMouse]

I oppose this bill on the grounds on being in High Wycombe on Saturday and seeing a number of people who for the sake of the public should have been veiled and perhaps even muzzled.

[emmie]

no one outside of their communities would know if they were coerced into wearing a burkha, veil. Read the link i provided if you have the time, if not well i tried to put others points of view.

[sp1814]

emmie

Let me try again...

I do not care if Jewish men wear skull caps.

I do not care if Christians wear crosses around their necks.

I do no care if Hindus daub the bindi on their foreheads.

None of these things have anything to do with me. If that's what floats your boat, go for it.

emmie - you are assuming that these women are subjugated, cowed and second class citizens. I assume you must have loads and loads of Muslim mates whom you have gleaned this off?

Well, that being the case, you are ahead of me, because I've never actually spoken to a woman in a full burkha, so I can't comment on their lives.

But I want you to understand that when I say, "I don't care", I mean I'm disinterested, rather than uninterested.

Big difference.

Hope that clears it up.

[andy-hughes]

emmie - part of the point i was making is the fact that some right-wing agitators play on our fear of other clutures, based on ignorance.

One of the popular cards played by racists is the notion that Muslim women are oppressed. There is no real fundamental basis for assuming that Muslim women are oppressed - it is simply a perception based on the notion that Muslim women are forced to cover themselves, which plays beautifully into the adjacent misunderstanding - Muslim men make their women cover themselves, while they list after white women who are not covered.

That may be true in a minority of cases - but a minority of cases in this country would bring back bear baiting of the could - it does not make it eith acceptable, or universal, simply that the media like to feed this misconceptions.

I personally do not not one single Muslim person, so i cannot speak from any experience - and I strongly suspect that a lot of the fear-mongers don't either!

It may well be that the majority of burka wearers are perfectly happy to dress that way, it is a part of their culture, and they grow up accepting it as the way things are - and who are we to deny them that choice?

This nebulous nonsense that Muslims are trying to make British culture the same as theirs is as facile as suggesting that all ex-pats in Spain want nothing but Irish pubs selling Sunday roasts!

It is media-driven, it plays to insecurities of people who fear those different to themelves, and it helps no-one at all, of any culture or race to accept our differences, and embrace our similarities - the most fundamental of which is - no-one gets to make the rules for everyone else, we all share this rock in space together.

[jake-the-peg]

This seems ver disingenuous to me

What is the problem that this bill is trying to address?

It seems that 'security' always seems to be quoted when this comes up but there does not seem to be a large scale problem of burqa clad bank robbers.

I think the real issue is relealed in this thread by people saying things like 'when in Rome'

By which they mean that everybody should dress and behave like them

It's basically an assault on multi-culturalism

An attempt to say: 'If you live in the UK you have to pretend to be like us because we don't feel comfortable with you keeping your language and customs and culture'

I would certainly be in favour of it being an offense for someone to make someone else dress in a manner like this against their will - but that's not what we're talking about here.

This is simply about intolerence

[sp1814]

JTP/andy-hughes

I hand over to the pair of you as you are articulating better than I can hope to...and I have a gym session to attend...

[douglas9401]

"Does Anyone Oppose This Bill?"

Apparently, but not me.

[emmie]

then why do some on here laugh and rubbish the British when they go abroad, set up their little enclaves and don't mix much with the locals, why is it ok to poke fun or make them out as idiots, isn't this a case of double standards. Alright for the Pakistani, Somalian, Indian to keep their culture, and stay within their communities, don't mix or very little, yet some who go to retire in Spain, France are thought of as Little Englanders, as they say you can't have it both ways.

[janbee]

I certainly don't oppose it.

[jake-the-peg]

They do so and poke fun precisely because of the double standards - it's invariably such people who want to attack multiculturalism in the UK.

[jno]

poking fun isn't the same as calling them idiots - and that's not the same as passing laws about what they're allowed to wear.

[andy-hughes]

emmie - if you were able to obtain accurate statistics, I am willing to bet that the number of foreign immigrants of all nationalities who either arrive speaking English, or learn it within twelve months to an acceptably fluent standard, compared to the number of expats in a non-English speaking country, you would find the numbers are probably 95% to 5%.

That is without taking into account the massive cultural shift for an Asian or African Muslim family moving to the UK compared with Brits going to Spain, which is certainly far less culturally different for them.

It is easy to laugh at ex-pats who simply want England with sun - because as a nation we are cautious, insular, and find it very difficult to cope with cultural differences, whether here or abroad.

Immigrants who come here on the whole seem far more willing to adapt and integrate - apart from a minority who - as i have already advised - are seized on as being representative of the majority which they are clearly not.

I wish I could say the same for the 'Speak English can't you / what time is the footie on / where can I get a decent cuppa' brigade as being untypical - but they are not!

[emmie]

i do know a number, and also know that some of the women are not in favour of wearing the burkha, veil, they do so for myriad reasons, one being family pressure. i have worked with people from every port of call, every background and religion, over a very long period of time.
perhaps as a woman i don't understand why you would want to wear it, and there is enough evidence to say that many do not wish to wear it, but do so because of the perceived repercussions.

[Svejk]

/// One of the popular cards played by racists is the notion that Muslim women are oppressed. There is no real fundamental basis for assuming that Muslim women are oppressed -///

Andy, they certainly appear to be oppressed to me. Indeed second- class citizens. So I must be a racist?

[emmie]

jno, they won't pass the laws, i have already said that, the French have, but its been largely unenforceable.

[andy-hughes]

Svejk - "Andy, they certainly appear to be oppressed to me. Indeed second- class citizens. So I must be a racist?"


I think the clue is in your own words - they 'appear to be oppressed' - but that is a matter of perception to our western eyes.

What may seem to be 'oppression' to us may be accepted as perfectly standard behaviour in Muslin culture - as i have said, i don't know.

What i would be very wary of, is Western culture setting itself up as the ultimate role model, and perceiving that anyone not following our styles are deemed inferior, or unfair, or unfeeling etc. etc.

Seeing where our insistance of enforcing democracy on countries who appear neither to want or embrace it has got us - several ongoing conflicts and a heart-breaking loss of life, and a fury-inducing loss of money - i think we should be a little less superior in our attitudes to other nations - no-one has elected us to be the world's arbiter of lifestyle, religion or political persauasion - we should consider that a lot more often than we appear to do.